noise restrictions ?

[mikeDavis]

A "friend" wants to know if the club is aware of any sites that we might have booked this year that have a problem with noisy vehicles. I, er I mean my friend knows that Midway and St. Cloud shouldn't have any problems with it. What about the other two venues?

My friend thanks you.

:)

[SaturnRaycer]

I'd be most concerned about AllRight Parking. Because of the proximity to downtown St Paul, you might have issues with echoing. (We used to hear LalaPalooza at my house near White Bear & Maryland).

[DCM]

The Met council rules state; that cars must have a street legal exhaust, except at the event masters discretion.
Which means that at a site like Fort Snelling, we could run open exhaust.
The typical restrictions are up to 100 decibels??? Or is it 90?
DCM

[weidnerpaul]

I think there is a Snake exclusion so we don't get bit...

[SaturnRaycer]

Originally posted by weidnerpaul


I think there is a Snake exclusion so we don't get bit...

Is that for "plastic" snakes?

[weidnerpaul]

Maybe just the Snakes "Friend"

[DCM]

The met council rules for 2003 say;

Section 3 Eligibility fo vehicles
3.4 All vehicles musthave a street legal exhaust system. Non-
STOCK classes may have open exhausts at the Event Masters discretion.

:flame:

DCM

:dancin:

[MNbiker]

This is an area where we should be more explicit in future race announcements, if there are any noise restrictions at a particular site. There is actually a bit of a discrepancy between the "street legal exhaust" paragraph and the car classifications. For instance, Stock cars are allowed to completely remove the muffler (probably not street legal for many vehicles) and exhausts are basically open for Street Prepared, Prepared & Modified classes.

For sites with noise restrictions (Allright?), I recommend we clearly state in the race announcement that noise restrictions will be in place for the event, and state what is acceptable/unacceptable (dB level at some distance, etc.).

-Steve

p.s. anyone own a sound level meter?

[Dennis G.]

I'm SURE we're gonna have problems with the ALLRIGHT lot if we don't be careful. A few minutes after we started our first run groups, across the street you could see a lot of faces peeking out their (EXPENSIVE) apartment windows to see what was going on. A few minutes later, most of those windows were SHUT. I don't think an engine screaming at 8000 rpm is music to their ears.

[AlexL]

I think we need a clearly defined sound limit for noise sensitive sites, along with equipment to enforce it. I did some digging, and found this document (http://www.pca.state.mn.us/programs/pubs/noise.pdf). Noise regulations are covered in pages 26-28. If I recall correctly, the procedure for sound tech when my dad raced motorcycles was to take a measurement at a certain distance from the exhaust pipe, and at a 45° angle to it, while holding the engine at 1/2 of its redline. Going by the state regulations, I'd recommend a limit of 80 dBA at 3 feet. Radio shack sells sound meters for about $50.

[MNbiker]

Originally posted by AlexL.....Going by the state regulations, I'd recommend a limit of 80 dBA at 3 feet......

This sound level is WAY too low to be practical. I'd wager 90% of our competitors would fail an 80dBA @ 3ft test. A more realistic standard would be 90dBA at 100 feet. I'd recommend something like the following for events with noise restrictions:

All vehicles must be muffled, with a maximum sound-level of 90 dBA at 100 feet. After one warning, disqualification may result.

-Steve

[phile]

Originally posted by MNbiker

There is actually a bit of a discrepancy between the "street legal exhaust" paragraph and the car classifications. For instance, Stock cars are allowed to completely remove the muffler (probably not street legal for many vehicles) and exhausts are basically open for Street Prepared, Prepared & Modified classes.

-Steve



No discrepancy. The rule
====
3.4 All vehicles musthave a street legal exhaust system. Non-
STOCK classes may have open exhausts at the Event Masters discretion.
====
is in force. Modifications to cars must conform to this. If you take off all the stuff after the cat can on your stock car and it is quiet enough for the street, OK. If it is not quiet enough for the street, you need to put on aftermarket mufflers until until it is quiet enough for the street.

Modified, Prepared and Street Prepared cars are subject to 3.4.

[AlexL]

Originally posted by MNbiker



Originally posted by AlexL.....Going by the state regulations, I'd recommend a limit of 80 dBA at 3 feet......

This sound level is WAY too low to be practical. I'd wager 90% of our competitors would fail an 80dBA @ 3ft test. A more realistic standard would be 90dBA at 100 feet. I'd recommend something like the following for events with noise restrictions:

All vehicles must be muffled, with a maximum sound-level of 90 dBA at 100 feet. After one warning, disqualification may result.

-Steve
I thought it was a bit restrictive, too after thinking about it. I don't even think my car would be legal if the limit was 80 dBA at 3 feet. I went back and looked at the information again and realized that I was reading the chart on the bottom of page 28 wrong. The chart actualy reads 80 dBA at 30 feet, which is still fairly restrictive. 90 dBA @ 100 ft. seems like a much more reasonable suggestion, but I wouldn't want to go any louder than that.

[SaturnRaycer]

Some communities have exhaust noise ordinances that specify the maximum sound level at a given distance. St. Paul is NOT one of those. I believe that Bloomington does specify a measurement. Would someone be able to check it out?

What does SCCA say about it in their race rules? Solo Rules book says what ours does, but I'm told that they monitor race cars at various points around a course like Brainerd or Road America.

[AlexL]

The Minnesota Pollution Control Agency regulates, among other things, noise pollution. Even though St. Paul doesn't have its own noise ordinances, MPCA's noise limits still apply.

http://www.pca.state.mn.us/programs/noise.html

You can also refer to the following document. The appropriate information is on the bottom of page 28:
http://www.pca.state.mn.us/programs/pubs/noise.pdf

[MNbiker]

Originally posted by phile
No discrepancy. The rule
====
3.4 All vehicles musthave a street legal exhaust system. Non-
STOCK classes may have open exhausts at the Event Masters discretion.
====
is in force. Modifications to cars must conform to this. If you take off all the stuff after the cat can on your stock car and it is quiet enough for the street, OK. If it is not quiet enough for the street, you need to put on aftermarket mufflers until until it is quiet enough for the street.

Modified, Prepared and Street Prepared cars are subject to 3.4.


Phil,

My issue with the 2003 rules is that they use terms such as "street legal" and "quiet" without defining the terms. For communities without explicit noise resrictions, an open exhaust could be legal, whereas some communities have very tight noise restrictions. I'm not overly concerned, as the Event Master has the power to do what's reasonable for a particular venue. Hence, my recommendation that we be more explicit in our Race Announcements, for any sites with noise restrictions.

Note: The 2004 Rule Changes, if approved, will include somewhat more explicit SCCA exhaust rules. However, the issue will pretty much remain the same, as Section 3.4 remains unchanged. If the rules are enforced to the letter, many/most Stock vehicles would be illegal, depending on how "street legal" is interpreted.

-Steve

[73GT]

I wasn't at allright last year but isn't it right under I-94 in Downtown St.Paul which has all the traffic noise? Both SCCA and MAC rules state ultimately up to the eventmaster which is very vague. So if we are going to imposse some noise limit we better find out what we are now as many competitors have used the same car for years (myself). Ron Hiraybayashis has done decibel measurements for LOL , we should have him measure some of our cars while running an event instead just putting out some arbitrary spec.

73GT

[DCM]

If, and it is the big 'IF'.

Anyone complains about noise at the Allright parking lot, they are just blowing smoke.

[yeah,yeahPhil,unfortunatelythesqueakywheelgetstheg reaseandcouldputusoutabusiness]

There was soooo much noise from traffic overhead, plus lotsa' airplane noise, and the trains!
DCM
[heythatewasmorethan2cents]









1:dancin:

[washburn]

Noise is a funny thing...at best subjective. At Pro and Tour events I have been at, we've had to pass noise meter testing. Qualcom Stadium is famous for this. My Neon at full song on an acceleration run passed the 90 db test at 100'. As most can probably tell you, a Neon at full song is not everyone's cup of tea, and is still quite loud.

Without getting into the details like sound pressure levels, differing frequencies and the like, a db meter does not often tell the whole story. Being that this is up to us, and understanding that peoples objections are not always reasonable (remember how we lost Hennepin), we need to be additionally cautious IMHO.

While I agree that subjective terms like "Street Legal" and "quiet" are not enforcable from the standpoint of providing evidence to the offender, these terms allow us some flexibility in enforcement for the better of the club as a whole. Remember...we may not be able to control any of this since squealing tires are often the main objection, not engine noise.

One solution at hte above mentioned Qualcom Stadium was to invent the "Qualcom Can". This is an old soup can cut up and wired to the exhaust outlet. It purpose is the deflect exhaust straight down to the ground. From a quarter mile away, the results were dramatic.
Alright Lot is funny in that it is in a echo chamber. Lots of noise is reflected around the area. Note that the existing noise from other sources makes no difference, and this argument will be shot down immediately.

I feel that the Alright events should have well advertised special sound control considerations. This is up to the EM and /or board to enforce on site. All cars should have mufflers, regardless of the rules. Yes, even my Swift Formula Ford can easily be fitted with a small muffler. This is a pain for some, and may keep others away, but if it helps us to keep a site on the schedule, I'm all for it. Again, it may not matter since the sqealing tires, the PA announcements,... may end up being the objections. My 2 cents.

[73GT]

I'd also like to add that it's not always the event running that causes the complaint. One of the main reasons we are no longer at DCTC is the spectators that mere coming and going were squealing there tires and this is something that's hard to control. If someone complains in the first place if it wasn't the noise they would find some other reason IHMO.


73 GT

[914 Dave]

How about a rule that states something like: If a car is carb'd and loud, you can't drive it off the primary jets. Maybe for FI cars a throttle cable restrictor, so you can't go beyond 1/2 throttle? Maybe for turbo cars, the turbo will need to be removed. And courses with no corners so no tire squeeling...

All silliness aside, we do need to address this and make our club standards known, either in the rules, event advertising, or both. We just need to set the standards, and enforce them. If we set a standard, such as 90db from 100yds, is it to late in the rules process to include some more scientific, less subjective wording in this years proposals? And, is noise something for tech to test and approve as part of pre event inspection, or is it something at the event masters discression again... And what if the event masters hearing aid is low on batteries? But I digress to sillines again... in summary, good things to think about, to help preserve sites, (and maybe a good part of our sales pitch to prospective sites) but how do we, or how can we, make decisions and have them stick for the upcoming season?

[Drew]

Being the person that dealt with the City of Brooklyn Park last year in connection with the noise complaint that was the premise for denying us further permits to run at HTC, I can tell you that Pat's post is a pretty accurate reflection of the issue. Met Council rules and db readings of exhaust noise levels are all well and good, and may be evidence we can use to support our own position in the event there is a complaint and we want to contest it. But in the case of HTC, the only sound from our activity that could reasonably be heard by the residences adjacent to HTC was squealing tire noise. And as long as one or more neighbors told the city they were disturbed by it, that was all the city needed to stop us.

I think its more of a "common sense" matter for those running the event at Allright. If the runs on the course make a lot of noise, or we otherwise disturb the nearby residents, we run the risk of complaints and then having to:
1. Further address the situation.
2. Contest the complaint.
3. Pack up and search for yet another site.

The smartest approach, IMO, is to keep the perception of the surrounding neighborhood in mind in as many planning aspects for the event as is reasonably possible. I'd suggest trying to imagine yourself as one of the neighbors to the site, and as a somewhat reasonable person, but who has no particular interest in autocrossing. Would there be anything about the way we're running the event that would be particularly annnoying - noise, traffic to and from, hours of operation?

Just some thoughts.

Drew