What are the new rules propsals?

[StevenMosley]

I just figured it might be time to post them.

[phile]

Originally posted by StevenMosley


I just figured it might be time to post them.


There will be only two classes. One for red cars and one for cars of any other color.


No, seriously, I think we will be making things, if not simpler, at least more consistent.

Give Steve a chance to catch up a bit and all will be revealed.

[StevenMosley]

Originally posted by phile



Originally posted by StevenMosley


I just figured it might be time to post them.


There will be only two classes. One for red cars and one for cars of any other color.


No, seriously, I think we will be making things, if not simpler, at least more consistent.

Give Steve a chance to catch up a bit and all will be revealed.





That sounds like fun!! I get to run with John Boos and the not red cars get to run with Keith Breumer. Ha ha sucks to be you!!! It sucks to be me too, but Keith is faster.

So how do 2 tone cars work with this system? Can they pick? What about different shades of red?

[miata#37]

Phil is confused. We were going to create lots of new classes, then use SCCA rules with multiple modifications, then a huge shouting match erupted over whether or not corvettes could run 13x10 wheels in Super Street Sports Touring 7 (SSST7). Dwight finally stepped in, claimed Met Council dictator for life status, and told us that we all had to run in the same class, drive fast, and let the stopwatch sort it out. Phil wanted the Red/not Red class for some reason, but the newly formed Met Council Double Secret Drifting Police escorted him from the meeting before a vote could be called.

At least thats the way I remember the meeting. My memory can be a little fuzzy at times. Steve Garnjobst was the official note taker/proposal drafter. He should have the official version posted in the not so distant future.

[SaturnRaycer]

Chris I'm really sorry you bumped your head on the way back to Iowa. Must have been the freeway fumes.

[miata#37]

Well, I was following a large tanker truck with a big hazardous substance sign on the back...and there was this smokey stuff leaking out of it...

[DCM]

Dictator for life, eh? :flame:

That sounds like a sentence, not a job.

To quote Mr. Mosley; "Phil is confused. We were going to create lots of new classes, then use SCCA rules with multiple modifications, then a huge shouting match erupted over whether or not corvettes could run 13x10 wheels in Super Street Sports Touring 7 (SSST7). Dwight finally stepped in, claimed Met Council dictator for life status, and told us that we all had to run in the same class, drive fast, and let the stopwatch sort it out. Phil wanted the Red/not Red class for some reason, but the newly formed Met Council Double Secret Drifting Police escorted him from the meeting before a vote could be called.

At least thats the way I remember the meeting. My memory can be a little fuzzy at times. Steve Garnjobst was the official note taker/proposal drafter. He should have the official version posted in the not so distant future."


Seriously, my thought's are, this should be far simpler than it has been for a long time.
DCM

[MNbiker]

I haven't had a chance to draft up the formal proposals yet, but here's a summary of the core recommendations:

1. Retain existing Met Council Rules pertaining to conduct of events. It was agreed that the SCCA rules for conduct of events added a number of certification, sanctioning and other requirements that weren't applicable or appropriate.

2. Adopt SCCA's Solo2 car classifications (current rulebook, plus monthly FasTrack updates), with the following exceptions:

a. No Kart classes

b. No Ladies classes

3. In addition to the SCCA classes, include the following classes:

a. a Single indexed Street Tire class, open to all SCCA classes
except STS/STX (which are already street tire classes).

b. Special Interest (SI) - as currently defined.

c. Exhibition (X) - as currently defined.

4. Adopt SCCA Bumping Order, with the exception that no bumping will be done
between categories (Modified, Prepared, etc.)

Proposals 1-4 would result in the addition of SCCA's SM2, STX, and several Modified classes. It would result in the elimination of Pro, SC1/SC2, and the Stock Street Tire classes.

5. Retain existing Stock Street Tire classes, instead of adopting the single Street Tire class included in Item 3 above. Although this was not considered a particularly desirable outcome, it was decided that such an option should be included, since this issue appears to be the primary area of differing opinions among drivers.

I'll have the formal proposals ready in the next week or so.

-Steve

[1/2mv^2]

Originally posted by MNbiker
Proposals 1-4 would result in the addition of SCCA's SM2...

And there was much rejoycing...

..yay..

[914 Dave]

Could not make the meeting- sounds like it covered alot of ground! What are the next steps, and when do we find out if/what the changes will be for our little car club for the upcoming season?

Dwight as dictator for life? I already have one of those, and the gold tatoo on my 2nd finger of my left hand to prove it... (sorry nancy, just kidding)

Unrelated topic- Santa should have a fun video for me to bring to the Jan. party. Will we have a TV, and VCR? DVD? Anyone know?

[DCM]

As to what is available at the ' BARN'
Call or e-mail Ron Hirobayashi mhirabayashi@mn.rr.com

952-944-6029
DCM:dancin:

[MNbiker]

Originally posted by 914 Dave
Could not make the meeting- sounds like it covered alot of ground! What are the next steps, and when do we find out if/what the changes will be for our little car club for the upcoming season?

Every Met Council club has to vote yeah or nay on any proposed changes. Any changes that get a yeah vote from all clubs are adopted - probably at the February Met Council meeting. Since this process requires 100% approval, the proposed changes were developed with the input of folks from most all the Met Council clubs. The hardest part will be how to draft the competing Street Tire options in a way that doesn't screw up approval of the other changes. I'm working on it.....


-Steve

[MNbiker]

Originally posted by 1/2mv^2



Originally posted by MNbiker
Proposals 1-4 would result in the addition of SCCA's SM2...

And there was much rejoycing...

..yay..

I figured you, Jeremy & a few others would be happy about that one.:D

[phile]

Originally posted by MNbiker

Every Met Council club has to vote yeah or nay on any proposed changes. Any changes that get a yeah vote from all clubs are adopted - probably at the February Met Council meeting. Since this process requires 100% approval, the proposed changes were developed with the input of folks from most all the Met Council clubs.

-Steve


Where did you get the idea this required 100% approval? I seem to recall instances where there were rules changes on a split vote. I don't think one club can block a rules change.

[MNbiker]

Originally posted by phile



Originally posted by MNbiker

Every Met Council club has to vote yeah or nay on any proposed changes. Any changes that get a yeah vote from all clubs are adopted - probably at the February Met Council meeting. Since this process requires 100% approval, the proposed changes were developed with the input of folks from most all the Met Council clubs.

-Steve


Where did you get the idea this required 100% approval? I seem to recall instances where there were rules changes on a split vote. I don't think one club can block a rules change.



Actually, I thought that's exactly the way the process was described by Rex & a couple other Met Council members at the meeting. However, I may have misunderstood something that was said. Dwight, can you enlighten us with the "official" version of the process?

Thx!

-Steve

[SaturnRaycer]

A Proposed rules change becomes part of the rules if the majority of member clubs accept it. Each change has to be either accepted or rejected by each club. Clubs cannot accept part of a change and reject another part.

Hope this clears the fog.

Last year there were five proposed rules changes. A couple changes were nearly unanimously rejected. A couple more got majority acceptance and one I beleive was unanimous acceptance.

[MNbiker]

Originally posted by SaturnRaycer
A Proposed rules change becomes part of the rules if the majority of member clubs accept it. Each change has to be either accepted or rejected by each club. Clubs cannot accept part of a change and reject another part.

Hope this clears the fog.

Last year there were five proposed rules changes. A couple changes were nearly unanimously rejected. A couple more got majority acceptance and one I beleive was unanimous acceptance.

Thank you sir, that clears things up nicely.:)

-Steve

[StevenMosley]

Originally posted by MNbiker

2. Adopt SCCA's Solo2 car classifications (current rulebook, plus monthly FasTrack updates), with the following exceptions:

a. No Kart classes

b. No Ladies classes



I really like option 2.

Here is my reasons:
1. Keep it Simple
2. SCCA has to many classes for our club, so why add even more.
3. Raw times rule


:alc: and Happy Holidays to all!

[StevenMosley]

Tonight is vote night isn't it?

[MNbiker]

Tonight, the MAC board voted in favor of two Met Council rules change proposals for 2004, as follows:

Proposal 1
This proposal includes several changes discussed and approved by the Rules Committee on 12/14/03, including:

1. Replace SECTION 8 – TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS with SECTION 8 – VEHICLE CLASSIFICATION. The new Section 8 references the current edition of SCCA’s Solo II Rules for vehicle classes. The affect on car classes would be as follows:
a. Additions: STX, SM2 and some Modified classes.
b. Deletions: Stock Street Tire, PRO, SC1, SC2
c. Note: SCCA Ladies and Kart classes shall not be offered.
2. Move language related to Bumping from Section 9 to Section 8 for better document flow.
3. Change the name of Section 9 from CLASSES to SUPPLEMENTARY CLASSES, to more accurately reflect the content.
4. Retain SI and X classes. Replace existing Stock Street Tire classes with a single indexed Street Tire class.
5. Minor grammatical & Section numbering corrections/updates – none affecting the content of the rules.

Proposal 3
This change updates Section 7.11 to permit email distribution of results and eliminates the right to a refund if results aren’t sent within 4 weeks.

7.11 Event results shall be sent to all entrants within four weeks after the event has been run. Entrants shall have the option of requesting results by either email or regular mail. Results shall include at least the following: Class, position, car number, driver first and last name, car, and fastest time including penalties.

Proposal #2, which was identical to Proposal 1 except that it retained the Stock Street Tire classes from 2003, was not approved.

In order for any rule change proposal to be instituted, a majority of the Met Council clubs must vote in favor of the change. The 2004 Rules will be posted, once the results of individual club votes are tallied.

-Steve Garnjobst

[DCM]

Sorry , your'e wrong Steve.

It wasn't a board meeting, it was a MEMBERSHIP meeting.

OK, so the board, or most of it was there, but lots of members as well.

They [Parrishes] made us stay upstairs, cause it was too cold downstairs.

It was a nice meeting, nobody punched anyone, and I wasn't threatened even once.
Quite a few ordered food, and drink. the club paid for one beverage.
We had a good time inspite of the meeting running until almost 10:00 PM. Or was it later?

Yes the majority approved Proposal 1, and Proposal 3.

Now it will go to the Metropolitan Council of Sports Car Clubs this coming Monday night for a vote.
Only one vote per club, so extra people sent won't help. But everyone is welcome.
The vote must be by simple majority, with a quorum a necessity.

Just be sure that your club is there and you are represented.
Dwight da prez:dancin:

[Dave Keillor]

Originally posted by MNbiker
Proposal 3
This change updates Section 7.11 to permit email distribution of results and eliminates the right to a refund if results aren’t sent within 4 weeks.


Okay, where's the accountability for posting results? In today's electronic world there's no reason why the results can't be posted within 24 hours. A first-rate club would ensure that results are posted in a timely fashion. MAC's recent performance in this area quite frankly stinks.

Dave Keillor

[MNbiker]

Originally posted by Dave Keillor
Okay, where's the accountability for posting results? In today's electronic world there's no reason why the results can't be posted within 24 hours. A first-rate club would ensure that results are posted in a timely fashion. MAC's recent performance in this area quite frankly stinks.

Dave Keillor

Do I hear a volunteer? This issue has been the topic of much discussion at several MAC meetings. The bottom line is SOMEONE needs to step forward and volunteer to be responsible for posting/distributing results. Otherwise, it will continue to be a problem.

-Steve

[Jeremy Engel]

Sounds like dave just volunteered!!! Yea for Dave!!!

[DCM]

See; 'lost cat to be given to a good home'

[sorryicouldn'thelpmyselfyouknowwhatimeandudes?]:dancin:

DCM

[Dave Keillor]

Originally posted by MNbiker

Do I hear a volunteer? This issue has been the topic of much discussion at several MAC meetings. The bottom line is SOMEONE needs to step forward and volunteer to be responsible for posting/distributing results. Otherwise, it will continue to be a problem.

-Steve

Steve, I volunteered a long time ago, but my offer died aborning. I wanted to get the data directly out of the timing software and post it directly to the web. What killed the proposal was your insistence that the bumping be incorporated into the results before posting and that the bumping be done onsite. I was not willing to write PC-based software to do this bumping onsite (could have done it with server software). I thought raw results would be better than nothing, but I was apparently in the minority.

All of this discussion went on last fall when our programming staff wasn't facing the important deadlines we are now. I might still be able to post raw results IF the format is reasonable and IF someone would be willing to give me a sample of the output from the timing software. What I'd probably do is post the results on one of our servers and provide the MAC web master a link.

Dave Keillor

[MNbiker]

Originally posted by Dave Keillor
Steve, I volunteered a long time ago, but my offer died aborning. I wanted to get the data directly out of the timing software and post it directly to the web. What killed the proposal was your insistence that the bumping be incorporated into the results before posting and that the bumping be done onsite. I was not willing to write PC-based software to do this bumping onsite (could have done it with server software). I thought raw results would be better than nothing, but I was apparently in the minority.

All of this discussion went on last fall when our programming staff wasn't facing the important deadlines we are now. I might still be able to post raw results IF the format is reasonable and IF someone would be willing to give me a sample of the output from the timing software. What I'd probably do is post the results on one of our servers and provide the MAC web master a link.

Dave Keillor

Dave,

I apologize if my responses, regarding posting of results came off as overly harsh or dismissive. That was certainly not my intent. However, we do have some significant hurdles to overcome, in order to cleanly post accurate results online OR send them out, via mail.

Based on long-standing club practices for award of trophies, we MUST determine class bumping at events, in order to award trophies. This can be a tedious process, and automating it would really help out the volunteer event staff. I have talked with Axware founder Vitek Boruvka, who indicated he may be develop a class bumping utility for AXWRATS. This would certainly be the best long-term solution, so maybe we can limp along with a manual process until Vitek comes up with a better alternative.

If we simply post "raw" results, I'm not sure how much, if any, programming will be required. AXWRATS actually kicks out some pretty decent HTML reports. Samples are posted online here: http://www.axwaresystems.com/axwreports.htm
Note: the samples posted online have a menu bar alongside the reports and a few other formatting changes, so I'm not 100% sure the raw html reports are identical in format to the ones on Axware's website.

As for posting raw, versus final results online, I suggest we bring this up at the next membership meeting. The bottom line is that if no one steps up to format the results soon, we may need to consider posting raw results, simply to meet the club's obligation to provide results on a timely basis. A viable, if not perfect solution, would be to develop some post-processing application that would add class bumping (and ideally, Series points) to the base HTML reports.

We'll know that after a bit of experimentation in the next couple of weeks. Josh, Jon, I and a few others will be staging a mock event in the next few weeks, to review and document the entire process. That will give us a much better idea where process bottlenecks and/or breakdowns exist, and which ones technology can help solve. You're welcome to participate in this exercise.

Thanks!

-Steve

[Dave Keillor]

I believe that half a loaf is better than none and raw results the day after the event would be better than waiting a week (or weeks) for results with bumping. Small steps are often easier than large ones.

I'm not really concerned how "nice" the raw data is. My company's business is transaction management data systems which includes lots of data conversion experience. All I need is some sample output (which I've requested before, but never received).

The bumping calculations aren't a big deal, either -- it's just a simple algorithm. But creating a PC-based program to do it onsite is not something I want to volunteer to tackle at this time. The reason is, that last I knew, MAC's PC equipment was somewhere around dumpster level. Our apps are developed in DOT NET which requires XP or installation of the DOT NET environment. Also, our app would use Access (internally, we use SQL Server). Simply put, I don't have the time to deal with whatever issues might arise with MAC's equipment. Our systems I know and can control.

Depending on my schedule, I'd be willing to participate in a dry run, but I'm not sure my presence would add much. All I need in order to post the results is a copy of the output file from the timing software. The data from that file would be imported into a SQL Server database with a simple user interface to query the results. Once the data is in a real database, all kinds of interesting possibilities open up.

If you think I'm a little annoyed by this whole goat rodeo, you're right and here's why:
-- Timeliness. We've lost several months since my first proposal.
-- Scope. Steve's concept is great, but you can't always achieve everything in one step (you can't boil the ocean with a match).

But, I'm not annoyed enough not to put that behind and move on. What I'd really, really love to do is to get the data into a queryable database so we could do some fun search, display, and calculation things. How about side by side comparisons of you and several other cars -- either on raw times or Pax times, either one event or cumulative?

The bottom line is that I'm willing to do what I can within available time and resources.

Dave Keillor

[DCM]

Get that man to sign on the line!!!!!
:dancin:
DCM
[psiwishiknewwhathistimingcomputerthingwasallabout]

[914 Dave]

Dave K. My hero. As well as fellow mid motor pilot. If I had even a clue of what you said in your post I'd offer to help, but just finding the "on" switch each morning is a victory for me...