Tires tires tires...

[PHRANQUY]

Ok, so I know this is getting to be an old subject....btu I believe my question may be a little different than others. I am looking for tires that I can drive on daily, but also attend the few Auto-x events I do plan to go to. I've got 17x8 wheels, and am kind of leaning twards a 255/45-17 as it will be close to the diameter of a 225/60-16 (stock on my car). And of course, the less expensive the better, under $150/tire is best.

Tires I've considered to date:
Kuhmo Ecsta MX (seems like the best option)
Kuhmo Ecsta SPT
Yokohama AVS ES 100

Other things I'm currently working on for the car:
Chassis bracing
removing airride and replacing with Koni's/Eibachs for a '97 Thunderbird.

Keep in mind we're talking abuot a car that weighs in the neighborhood of 4,000 Lbs with driver.

Also keep in mind i'm open to options and opinions.

Oh, and my daily drive to work is 11 miles one way if that helps at all. (I work in the Drake Marble building off of Plato/Robert in St. Paul in case your wondering)

[MNbiker]

Not a lot of good options in that price range. Of the three tires you list, the Ecsta MX is the only one you won't hate at an AutoX event. While the MX would be clearly better than the other two tires, it isn't an option I would generally recommend for a heavier car, as one of it's biggest weaknesses is a relatively soft sidewall - not a good thing for heavy cars.

I have another option you may wish to consider: the Falken GR Beta FK-451. It's available in 255/45-17, has a considerably stiffer sidewall than the MX, and is very reasonably priced (Discount Tire has them for $130 each). This tire should be comparably quick for autocross, versus the MX, but the handling crispness will be better.

-Steve

[Evan]

I'll give it a shot since we're all alone in this forum right now. Of course, I have to warn you that i'm an accomplished idiot and to take whatever I say with a grain of salt :lol:

Your wheel size of 17X8 might be on the edge of the recommended wheel width for a 255X45 size tire. What this means (as I remember it) is you run the possibility of having less of a contact patch versus, say a 245X45 or 225X50 tire since the tire takes a concave set in relation to the traction surface since the width of the rim might be on the narrow side.

You could also size your tires to get a particular gearing advantage, and your commute of 11 miles to work is nothing to worry about in terms of wear (but the heat cycles could be a factor), so dont totally rule out the possibility of DOT legal comp tires. They're a heckuvalot of fun in an autoX circuit but might be over your budget.

[MNbiker]

Your wheel size of 17X8 might be on the edge of the recommended wheel width for a 255X45 size tire. What this means (as I remember it) is you run the possibility of having less of a contact patch versus, say a 245X45 or 225X50 tire since the tire takes a concave set in relation to the traction surface since the width of the rim might be on the narrow side.


8" is the minimum recommended rim width for 255/45-17, so you're within the design guidelines for the tire. Wider wheels would provide a bit wider contact patch - in theory providing more cornering grip. But the tire will still perform as intended. In an autocross setting, for your tank of a car, the 255 will likely outperform a similar 245 on the same 8" wheel. A 225 wouldn't even be close.

-Steve

BTW - the contact patch will be the same size as with a wider rim, it will just be a different shape.

[PHRANQUY]

Not a lot of good options in that price range. Of the three tires you list, the Ecsta MX is the only one you won't hate at an AutoX event. While the MX would be clearly better than the other two tires, it isn't an option I would generally recommend for a heavier car, as one of it's biggest weaknesses is a relatively soft sidewall - not a good thing for heavy cars.

I have another option you may wish to consider: the Falken GR Beta FK-451. It's available in 255/45-17, has a considerably stiffer sidewall than the MX, and is very reasonably priced (Discount Tire has them for $130 each). This tire should be comparably quick for autocross, versus the MX, but the handling crispness will be better.

-Steve
Steve, I appreciate the recomendation as I am totally open to options since I have not yet ordered anything. Like I said I have started looking at tires and am having a hard time deciding as I am yet a tire noob, the tires I listed were just some I had started looking at. If you want to mod a Mocular 4v Motor, I can tell you lots about that. As I'm sure you know choosing a tire for a 4,000lb car is different than choosing a tire for a 2,000lb car. The Falken GRB FK-451 is now on my list of tires to look into.


And yes, I also realize that my wheel size selection puts me on the edge of the recomendations of my chosen tire width, but I have done the same with other tires on this vehical and others without to many adverse effects.

[StevenMosley]

I have another option you may wish to consider: the Falken GR Beta FK-451.
-Steve

Steve,

How would the Beta be as a summer street tire on my 325? I don't know if I will ever track it or autox it, but I would like to have a good tire on it if I decide to.

Steven

[MNbiker]

Steve,

How would the Beta be as a summer street tire on my 325? I don't know if I will ever track it or autox it, but I would like to have a good tire on it if I decide to.

Steven

Pretty decent. The tire uses a carcass similar to the Azenis, so the ride will be a bit stiffer than average. The tread pattern seems to be a bit quieter than the Azenis. The rubber compound is similar to the Azenis, but handles heat better.

FWIW - Tom Hoppe won STX at Nationals in 2004 on a shaved set of 245/35-17 FK-451's. I had the same tire on my WRX, and really liked them. Unshaved, they squirm a bit for autox (similar to the new Azenis, actually).

[92MNstanger]

Paraguay,
Do you have any chance of getting a 9 inch wide wheel?

[StevenMosley]

Pretty decent. The tire uses a carcass similar to the Azenis, so the ride will be a bit stiffer than average. The tread pattern seems to be a bit quieter than the Azenis. The rubber compound is similar to the Azenis, but handles heat better.

FWIW - Tom Hoppe won STX at Nationals in 2004 on a shaved set of 245/35-17 FK-451's. I had the same tire on my WRX, and really liked them. Unshaved, they squirm a bit for autox (similar to the new Azenis, actually).


Sounds perfect. I will have to order some. I was not having good luck finding reviews on the tire so this helps.

[Evan]

In the context of wheel width, I must be way out of touch if tire development has come this far forward. In the 1980's & 90's the big three (2 goods & 1 fire) and even in the late 90's (a company that begins with T) all made tires of a particular size. These companies developed them and it was common knowledge (through their own engineers & reps) in racing circles that there was a "magic" wheel width which was optimal and it NEVER included the minimum width that a tire would fit in. Optimum of course was measured in tenths to single digit percentage points and the racers had to figure this out for their application in a very expensive and time consuming process. The recommended width range application is of course adequate and safe (if there's such a thing in racing) but is a result of manufacturers trying to sell more tires of a particular size.
YMMV :)

[PHRANQUY]

[Shhhhh, cover your ears, I'm shamelessly plugging DCM again.]
[ Direct Perforamce, the wholesale division of Discount Tire, where I have a account, will sell them to me for $99 each, plus frieght, MN sales tax and M&B.]
[Don't let this get out now, I might make some profit.]
[Shhhhhh! ]
I think we should get ready to order these tires then, it seems to be a little more friendly to my needs. Why don't you give me a call later this week (or even today) and we can arrange to meet up, I can drop off the wheels with you when i get them back next week.


Paraguay,
Do you have any chance of getting a 9 inch wide wheel?
Sadly, not this year. I need to do some body work (roll fenders, a little work to the inner fenders), some clearancing on the spindles/control arms just to be safe, and do a little research on offsets to see what I can make work, which I won't be able to d after I get some wheels/tires that are a little closer to what I need. Next year I plan to do all this stuff over the winter, so I should be able to spring of '06, but I will need to do a lot of reading between now and then.

Some day I will get 275+ width tires to fit all around the car. This year I'll worry more about my drving skills.

[MNbiker]

In the context of wheel width, I must be way out of touch if tire development has come this far forward. In the 1980's & 90's the big three (2 goods & 1 fire) and even in the late 90's (a company that begins with T) all made tires of a particular size. These companies developed them and it was common knowledge (through their own engineers & reps) in racing circles that there was a "magic" wheel width which was optimal and it NEVER included the minimum width that a tire would fit in. Optimum of course was measured in tenths to single digit percentage points and the racers had to figure this out for their application in a very expensive and time consuming process. The recommended width range application is of course adequate and safe (if there's such a thing in racing) but is a result of manufacturers trying to sell more tires of a particular size.
YMMV :)

I don't know of any autocrossers, even at elite National levels, that spend anywhere near the time you describe selecting a wheel width. The general rule of thumb for modern radial street & r-compound tires is that the optimum wheel width is equal to the tread width, plus or minus .5". Walk through grid at Solo Nationals, and this guideline is spot-on for top cars in classes where wheel width restrictions aren't a factor. Also, I'd say manufacturers have gotten a lot better at publishing recommended width ranges for tires - especially important, since many of the new ultra low-profile tires (30, 35 series) have very narrow usable wheel width ranges.

For pure racing slicks, things are often even more clear-cut. Many of the tires are specifically designed for a particular wheel width, determined by class/series rules.

For autocross, compromises in wheel choice abound. Cost is a MAJOR consideration for most of our club members, who can't justify $1,500+ for a custom set of wheels - just to get the perfect wheel width & offset. Many of the classes also have very restrictive wheel width limitations. As a result, you'll see some really crazy wheel/tire combinations - used purely because they have proven faster on the autocross course. For instance, the hotest setup for C Stock Miatas is a tire with an 8.8" tread width - mounted on a 6" wide wheel. :bigeyes: Optimum? No way! But, that setup has proven fastest, given rules limitations & tire availability.

-Steve

[Evan]

Well, that's too bad. Why dont you ask serious road race competitors and even National & Pro Solo competitors that are not running stock wheels what their wheel specs are and see if you get a straight answer.

Phranquy was asking for an opinion and suggestions and those were mine. No need to debate it. I'm sure you are well in touch with Solo (and i've been out of since 2001) and seem very knowlegeable about tire construction and when the time comes for me to make some tire decisions, I'll ask you.

[MNbiker]

Why dont you ask serious road race competitors and even National & Pro Solo competitors that are not running stock wheels what their wheel specs are and see if you get a straight answer.

I have. My experience with top National autocross competitors has been largely very positive. I've asked for quite a bit of setup data, and have rarely been told no. In most cases, the drivers are more than willing to share the information. FWIW - I'm certain the situation is entirely different in professional motorsports.

On a related note, autocross, in my experience, has a lower jerk quotient than any other competitive sport I've been involved with. At a local level, I'm confident you could ask any MAC member for advice and get a straight answer. :)

-Steve

[PHRANQUY]

Well, After talking to Dwight about all this, I couldn't justify spending an extra $16/tire to get another 10mm in width, so I am going with a 245/45-17 Falken GR Betta FK-451 instead, which is the same diameter as the tires thatare on my car now, and my speedo and such have already been adjusted for that.

[Evan]

Congratulations Phranquy. Hope you do great with them.

[phile]

I'm sure you are well in touch with Solo (and i've been out of since 2001) and seem very knowlegeable about tire construction and when the time comes for me to make some tire decisions, I'll ask you.
Whether you were being sarky or serious, you could do a lot worse than to ask Steve. He does his homework on stuff like this.

[AlexL]

In the context of wheel width, I must be way out of touch if tire development has come this far forward. In the 1980's & 90's the big three (2 goods & 1 fire) and even in the late 90's (a company that begins with T) all made tires of a particular size. These companies developed them and it was common knowledge (through their own engineers & reps) in racing circles that there was a "magic" wheel width which was optimal and it NEVER included the minimum width that a tire would fit in. Optimum of course was measured in tenths to single digit percentage points and the racers had to figure this out for their application in a very expensive and time consuming process. The recommended width range application is of course adequate and safe (if there's such a thing in racing) but is a result of manufacturers trying to sell more tires of a particular size.
YMMV :)
We (most of us) aren't running on bias ply tires here. I can see that being true to some extent with bias ply tires, but modern radial tires can be quite effective over a very wide rim width range.