St. Cloud Auto Cross [Archive] - Minnesota Autosports Club

914 Dave

02-27-2003, 11:00 AM

Here in lovely, senic Rice Lake, WI we are in the same situation as maddydaddy, having to travel to cone crush. Actually St Cloud is still a haul for us, just in another direction. I'm sure Brandon and myself would consider the trip, other schedules, and spouces permitting... On another travel related note, I was in Brainerd MN vacationing last year, I think it was early august. Anyway, while in town one day I saw ALOT of lowered card w/meats and #'s on them. Is there a club in the area we could do an event with, might it have been SCCA, or ?. Anyone have an idea?

Drew

02-27-2003, 08:57 PM

An autocross at St. Cloud is under consideration for the MAC schedule this season because several people have told Chuck Bower and myself they'd really like to have another one at that facility. So it would be very helpful to get some responses as to interest here on this board, as Jerry suggested.

I'll put in my own vote for an event in St. Cloud too, since I very much like running there.

BTW, at this point, as far as I know, COM will have three NCCC weekends at St. Cloud, which are also open to non-Corvette entries. But they have so far indicated they aren't planning any Met Council events there this year. BMW likewise has said they don't think they will have an autocross at St. Cloud this year.

There is a Met Council meeting on Monday. If there are any new event announcements by those clubs, we'll put up a post on it.

But again, if you'd like to see a MAC event at St. Cloud, please post on this thread. We need to know there would be an adequate turnout (at least 50 to 60 entries) in order to make it feasible.

Drew Baumbach

73GT

02-27-2003, 09:31 PM

I also like to run at St.Cloud and would like to have at least one event there. There's alot of possiblities up there. Last years event there was not a good example of the potential of the site.

Lee Frisvold
73 Opel GT

DCM

02-28-2003, 05:38 AM

st cloud is an easy haul for me. [one handed typing] and sure is a fun place. oh hello everyone. this is da prez in recovery, with one arm.letsdo st cloud.
dcm

StevenMosley

02-28-2003, 07:50 AM

I like Saint Cloud. It is the only big site we have available. I didn't make the MAC event last year, but the Corvette club events have been a blast. It is the best sight we have had since Dakota. Until we find a parking lot that I can get out of first gear this will be the case.

I know that money becomes a concern at Saint Cloud so we might want to consider charging a little more for the event. Another thing we should think about is seeing if we could host non-point event at Dakota. If they would let us use or timing equipment for the sake of measuring our driving efficiency, we could rid ourselves of the scoring headache and have a practice day. I would be up for more runs timed runs in a buck run environment.

Steven

weidnerpaul

02-28-2003, 07:58 AM

Until we find a parking lot that I can get out of first gear this will be the case.

Steven,
Have you considered installing a close ratio 6 speed --- then maybe you'd get out of 1st gear:D

Paul

StevenMosley

02-28-2003, 09:04 AM

Paul,

I have thought about that, but then I will run into the delima, that first is to short and 2 second is to tall. I have a simular problem in La Crosse. Sometimes they setup the track with nasty tightspots that you have to shift to first for the exit and then on the same track 2nd is to short so you have to hit 3rd for a few seconds.

Oh well, my next car with have to have a CVT transmission. :)

Steven

ZETECF1

02-28-2003, 09:42 AM

From what I remember from the MAC event that was held there a few years ago, we did not use any part of the road course like the vette club uses for their auto X's. If you don't plan on utilizing parts of the road course, it kind of defeats the purpose of renting this sort of facility.

Patrick

phile

02-28-2003, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by ZETECF1

From what I remember from the MAC event that was held there a few years ago, we did not use any part of the road course like the vette club uses for their auto X's. If you don't plan on utilizing parts of the road course, it kind of defeats the purpose of renting this sort of facility.

Patrick

The only purpose to renting any kind of facility is to hold an autocross.

We are not considering renting St Cloud because they have a road course. We are considering renting Saint Cloud because they have a car park big enough to stage an autocross. If Canterbury Park and all of the other nice lots we used to use in the Twin Cities were still available, we would not even be considering Saint Cloud.

We put all our eggs in one basket at Canterbury because it was a really nice basket. We can't afford to do that again. The sites we have in the Twin Cities now are sub-optimal. Saint Cloud had nice lots, I am told, but is a long drive and had weird restrictions. We can't afford to turn up our noses at any of them. We must keep our foot in the door at any useable site.

Canterbury was a big site. People short-sightedly abandoned all the other smaller sites. Our relationships with all of them died and we can't seem to get them back. Many of those sites are larger than the local sites we have now.

If we ever do find a new local site even half the size of Canterbury, we should rejoice. We should also continue to use Midway and Hennepin. We can't afford to keep making the same mistakes.

Phil Ethier

TimWalterson

02-28-2003, 01:20 PM

I say "Yes" to a St Cloud event. I agree with Lee's comment. There is definitely more potential for a good course.

SaturnRaycer

02-28-2003, 01:31 PM

I've done St Cloud with COM and with MAC. The site has a lot of possibilities using the two "lots" or even one lot and part of the track ala COM. I'm in favor of scheduling an event there this year. If it's more successful than last year, we can think about going to two events for the following year.

I agree that last year wasn't a good assessment. The weather and some other issues conspired against success.

washburn

02-28-2003, 02:45 PM

If it is on a weekend that I'm free, I will gladly make the trip with the Swift! Sounds like fun!

Pat Washburn

miata#37

02-28-2003, 02:55 PM

St. Cloud is a pretty long haul for me. As a general rule, I draw the line at how far I'm willing to drive for an autocross along the northern edge of the Hennepin Tech lot. Anything more and it starts turning into a case of getting a motel room and the cost of a day's fun increases substantially. If we're going to run up there, could we consider a two day event like DMVR runs at Fairmont? Another suggestion that may help the turnout, back off on the early starting time.

If we do decide to run an event there, may I humbly suggest a considerably more open course than we usually run? By this I'm talking about a course similar to the one Brian Goodner set up down at Sandpiper. This is the course Adam, Chuck, and Salah immortalized in their 3 car challenge.

Dave Keillor

02-28-2003, 03:31 PM

Sure, we'd do St. Cloud. I've run there with COM and it's a nice change from Midway and Hennepin. From Rochester it's best done as an overnighter, but that's okay once a year. Didn't make it to the St. Cloud event last year, but heard there were some issues that should be avoidable in the future.

Dave

C4Autocrosser

02-28-2003, 05:47 PM

Count me in... Just try to schedule on a weekend that doesn't conflict with another "local" event. I was very disappointed that last years event was on the "Corvettes Do Brainerd" weekend. And get this (from a Corvette driver), I'd like to see the parking lots put to better (AX course) use. It seems to me that both parking lots can be used with the "slalom road" to connect them.

Dave
How long until the first '03 event?!

psundberg

02-28-2003, 06:13 PM

Without stealing Drew and Chuck's limelight, the first MOWOG is tentatively set for April 6 at Midway. More info is forthcoming as soon as it's locked in.

Regarding St. Cloud, I'm all for one MAC event. I personally would like to see a road course similar to Dakota Tech. I suppose pure autocross should be set up on lots but a road course (or combo road/lot course) is a nice change of pace and I believe most people expect that from St. Cloud.

There was too much controversy over this last year. The bottom line is the Event Master and the Safety Rep have the authority to set up the course as he/she envisions.

Phil

weidnerpaul

02-28-2003, 07:16 PM

Steven,
Try my MINI during buck runs this year if you want to try a non close ratio 6 speed...
1st goes too high and the car really needs a LSD as the inside wheel spins like crazy---but it's still fun to drive ;)
Paul

fitz

03-01-2003, 06:06 AM

I'll run there, just don't ask me to EM again.

Godspeed

03-01-2003, 01:09 PM

I ran at St. Cloud last year with COM and thought it was a great event. St. Cloud is also where I take my law enforcement advanced driving course every other year. I think that it is too good of a facility to rent out and then only run a parking lot event. Don't want to sound harsh, but if thats what the plan is, I'd skip MAC's event and hold out for a COM weekend.

StevenMosley

03-02-2003, 12:08 PM

I agree. If the idea is to use the parking lots at St. Cloud then skip it.
This discussion has made me wonder what is an autocross?

Here is one that I found:

Autocross, or SCCA Solo 2 is by definition a non-speed automotive competition event. The terms autocross, slalom, and gymkana are often used to describe the same activity. In Solo 2 competition, one car at a time negotiates a serpentine course, hence the use of the word solo. Finishing position is based upon elapsed time to complete the course, with the lowest score winning. Vehicle agility and handling are emphasized rather than brute power or top speed. The top speed encountered is normally less than legal highway speeds.

Here is what I found about the definition of a site:

The course or track is usually set up in a large parking lot using rubber traffic cones. Any reasonably large paved surface can be used as long as it is comparatively free of curbs, light poles, and landscaping.

I have autocrossed on circle tracks, road courses, and parking lots. I like the variety.
Dakota (I only know one person that has complained about it.) was a great site, Miller Park is a great site, St Cloud is a great site, and La Crosse Speed is a great site. No site can have everything. You play to the strengths of each site.

Having to go from Miller Park to Midway though is a major downer. We need better sites. We need good sites. We need bigger parking lots with better surfaces; we need road courses even if one person doesn’t like it. We need them all.

And for Paul,

My bitch ('01 Beetle GLS Turbo) is geared high in first. I think I can hit 35-40mph before the rev limiter kicks in. If the speedometer ever starts working again I will be able to confirm this. The high first gear is big advantage in autocrossing on small sites. You can eliminate shifting to second with it. As for wheels spin, we will have to compare notes. The Beetle spins like crazy with the traction control off. It is a hard car to drive fast since it loves to push and you have to be really patient with it when you corner. On the plus side it transitions well, ABS brakes are great, and it has a nice low torque band to pull you out of those slow corners.

weidnerpaul

03-02-2003, 01:51 PM

a nice low torque band

Steven,
Thats just what I don't have --- I have a low compression 1600 cc supercharged engine so if i don't keep the engine at high revs my time is toast (and burnt toast at that).
My goals this year are to drive slower to run faster (slower into corners)and to "read" the course better so I can start with better times.
And to drive FWD and RWD the same day...
Paul

Drew

03-02-2003, 04:25 PM

I think most people that are interested in an autox at St. Cloud would expect and prefer to make partial use of a parking lot and partial use of the multiple road course options. I agree that it somewhat defeats the purpose of conducting an event at St. Cloud if we are going to restrict it to two parking lots that are little different in size and shape from Midway and HTC.

Steve's comment about playing to each site's strength's is right on. Many people liked DCTC and wish we could be back there. And we didn't lay out a course on any parking lots there. It was all laid out on the roads.

I also really agree with Phil Eithier's comment that we need to keep using and maintaining relationships with the sites we have available, or the site owners will lose interest in renting to us and find other, more profitable, uses for their property. We don't have such a wealth of available sites that we can afford to ignore any of them. Those who feel an hour to hour and a half drive to St. Cloud is too long to bother with may someday find themselves with a choice between a postage stamp sized parking lot in town or 4 to 6 hour drive to an event in Iowa or Milwaukee, WI.

Sure, St. Cloud is a farther drive than Midway, costs more and has some more site restrictions. But it's currently the only place we can set up a course where you can get out of first gear, really cover some territory, and have a 60 to 90 second run. MAC has some experience there from last year. COM has a lot of experience there. We can improve on last year's event and have a successful autox there if we want.

Drew Baumbach

Clint

03-02-2003, 09:25 PM

I'm in St. Cloud and offer my help in information gathering or whatever. I've also been to many COM events here and would love to help set up a course using both the lots and the roads. COM uses one basic layout most of the time, and it really is fun. It goes something like this...

Edit: won't let me upload it. Here's the link: http://www.mnsafetycenter.org/

MarkDeBoer

03-03-2003, 09:38 AM

I would love to go to the St. Cloud track. As far as distance, it would be nice for those of us who live nw of the cities to not have to drive an hour to autocross...

washburn

03-03-2003, 11:31 AM

Find a good site up there, and we will all have to drive to you! :)

Pat

Dennis G.

03-03-2003, 11:50 AM

I know what the SCCA book says "AUTOCROSS" or "SOLO" is...but does that book REALLY dictate our activities here...with Met Council and MAC? I think AUTOCROSS can be whatever WE want it to be. As long as WE don't go overboard on our own so local drivers cant use their cars at an SCCA event, do WE have to follow that book? Not to say it's all bad! Course design suggestions from SCCA are the best... Lets just not limit ourselves by THEIR rule book. Just like sites, lets use whatever is useful to us but realize we CAN be a little independant.....Comments?

jclemen

03-03-2003, 01:03 PM

I remember a comment from a long time ago, probably when the club first started using the dakota site. I'm not sure what we're doing there is really an autocross. It seems kind of like a form of road racing to me. I see the St Cloud website and it looks like the same concept as dakota. Don't get me wrong, lots of fun to be had at these facilities, just not what I see in SportsCar magazine. They're all at airports or huge ass empty parking lots.
I remember the days of Canturbury downs. 1000x1000 ft parking lot with dips and off camber rolls in the pavement. Plus run-off room. Which is the reason ive turned to the ser, ive seen a couple of people hit the fence at dakota. I don't want to do that with the m3. So I'm always looking for a parking lot site. I'd drive 2 hours for a facility like that.

Jeff Clements
Old Timer...

Dennis G.

03-03-2003, 02:20 PM

I think you missed my point. If we want to serve tea and Armour-All our tires all day and call it autocross, we CAN if we want to. No one dictates to us. So the magazines don't serve tea...who cares! Get the point? If the club and the membership as a majority PREFER long courses over small squares of pavement, THAT is what activities we should do. Sure, we all long for a HUGE piece of concrete to play on (and btw Canterbury wasn't quite that wide) but we dont have much choice right now. Isn't it funny though that if we DID have a 1000 X 3000 foot area that we could use, the typical course WOULD be a "mini road course" in design...its just that it's "borders" are pylons and not the edge of the road of the much-maligned areas like Dakota Co. Maybe in this area, circumstances are forcing our favorite sport to change a little. Rules change, (F1!), circumstances change. An old Chinese CURSE..."May you live in interesting times."
D.G.

jclemen

03-03-2003, 03:09 PM

Bah. I hear what you're saying, but I guess I'd rather be doing it like everyone else around the nation. Again, I'm not saying these mini road courses arent tons o fun. I'm saying that if my goal is to get to nationals, i'd rather be learning to drive in the same sort of environment as what I'll see there.
As far as the setup goes, ive seen some creative things done at dakota, but ultimately, the courses designs are limited. Obviously, the parking lot delivers more from a course design, event type, and run off room perspective. I think it'd be cool to run a Pro Solo event, there's another point series right there.
We all have fun at these events, no matter what you call it. I just think we should be aware that there are some more options out there. Man, I'd drive 3 hours for an empty parking lot...

Jeff
Lusts for open places

Dave Keillor

03-03-2003, 04:20 PM

I've run at St. Cloud, but not at 10/10ths on the road course portion. There's no run off room. I've also run at La Crosse, but again not at 10/10ths -- the concrete wall is not forgiving. I haven't looped the Miata yet, but when I do I want some space.

I, too, am not saying road-type courses aren't fun. Just that they can be unforgiving and I won't run them at 10/10ths. Maybe if I were driving an older, closed car instead of my wife's Miata I'd feel differently.

Dave Keillor

washburn

03-03-2003, 07:41 PM

I agree with Dennis on all points. I also understand a thing about risk management. That is the real issue. If we cut a first timer loose and he piles it up into a pole and someone gets hurt, our activities will cease. That's my only concern, the safety of my friends first, and the ability to keep doing this second. Other than that, the road course type courses are a ball. :)

phile

03-03-2003, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by jclemen

......... I remember the days of Canturbury downs. 1000x1000 ft parking lot with dips and off camber rolls in the pavement. ........

Jeff Clements
Old Timer...

1100 x 390 feet, as I recall.

Got on a big lot at MGA Research Center in Wisconsin last sumer, and damn, that felt good. At 300-plus miles, though I don't think it is a viable site for MAC.

Phil Ethier

Dennis G.

03-04-2003, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by jclemen

Bah. I hear what you're saying, but I guess I'd rather be doing it like everyone else around the nation. Again, I'm not saying these mini road courses arent tons o fun. I'm saying that if my goal is to get to nationals, i'd rather be learning to drive in the same sort of environment as what I'll see there.
As far as the setup goes, ive seen some creative things done at dakota, but ultimately, the courses designs are limited. Obviously, the parking lot delivers more from a course design, event type, and run off room perspective. I think it'd be cool to run a Pro Solo event, there's another point series right there.
We all have fun at these events, no matter what you call it. I just think we should be aware that there are some more options out there. Man, I'd drive 3 hours for an empty parking lot...

Jeff
Lusts for open places

I'm saying if we CAN'T do it like everyone else, at least lets have fun! I'm not saying mini road courses are ideal either. Lets just not AVOID them. We can't afford to any more. As far as the Nat's. are concerned, I don't think the club should necessarily change direction or cater to ANY group with personal goals or agendas, no matter who they are. Within reason, lets do what most members want to!
D.G.

Godspeed

03-07-2003, 11:29 AM

Dennis G, you are right on track.
And to the others, no one is suggesting changing the whole venue of the club. We are talking about one event.
There is a new Mustang club in the metro area with over 100 members. A lot of the guys are looking for events to run their cars in. I'm looking to point them towards an autocross/road course event. I'd love to bring them to a MAC event, but the small parking lot events aren't the most fun in a Mustang. I'll be really disappointed if the club goes to St. Cloud and doesn't use the potential that site offers.

jclemen

03-07-2003, 12:27 PM

Okay. My assumption is that the club members want to improve their driving skills and then ultimately compete at the top levels. Who doesn't want to go to nationals and see where they stack up? When I go to an autox, I expect to be challenged. That doesn't happen at the road course events because the same part of the track is used every other weekend. Again, course design is limited, and its hard to make anything challenging.
If everybody just wants to have fun, and not learn anything, then by all means, setup a track with about 4 corners and a slalom go at it. If Mustang guys don't like small parking lots, its because of their skill. Anybody remember Bill Hoximier or Tim Robbins(Roberts)? These guys had the thinist corvettes every built, didn't matter if it was a short (mac) technical course or a (com) long, speed event. They were fast, period.
I've already started to look for lots, assuming an hours drive from the cities is acceptable. It's probably been done before, but I might as well try.
Just because our options are limited, doesnt mean we have to slip into mediocrity. My flame suit is on and I apologize, but if you're going to ignore the fact that people around the nation are doing it completely different, and that sanction bodies conform to that standard, then you've been having way too much fun to notice we're not doing it the right way. And I'd personally rather be doing it the right way then making up my own rules and calling it good.

Jeff Clements

MarkDeBoer

03-07-2003, 01:57 PM

I'd still like to have an event in St. Cloud...even with my poor driving skills!:)

73GT

03-07-2003, 02:06 PM

Wow jeff where do I begin? You know what they say about assumtions. Doing it the wrong way? Making our own rules? When was the last time you competed at a local AX
5 yrs? We don't have the luxury of Cantabury's large national size lot any more and when MAC was at Cantabury the courses weren't very technical except the one that had the stop sign part way thru it with a map. There's alot more out there than the SCCA for autocrossing. We have very few options in this area for venues. BTW the COM guys don't show up in the numbers they used to due to our venues. A modified road course can be made technical just go up to St.Cloud when COM put's on an event. Dakota Co. can be made to be technical buts it's up to the EM. I don't understand your distain for road courses saying they boring. It's different due to it's elevated speed you need to be more on, because of the consequences, it's much different taking a sweeper at 60 than it is at 30. Hoxmeiers still around but drives a Z06. The thinnest vette I've ever seen is John Boos. The more different venues the better driver you will become whether we compete on a mini road course or a parking lot it all comes down to seat time ,driving on the edge and looking at least two corners ahead Jeff.;) :)

Lee F
73GT

Godspeed

03-07-2003, 02:57 PM

So, I don't like parking lot events because of "my skill". Thanks a lot jeff!
My point was, when you have a car with 300+ horsepower, it's more fun to run on a course that allows you to get out of first gear.
It's fine to run parking lot events all summer at sites like Midway but why go to a road course and only use the parking lot.

MarkDeBoer

03-07-2003, 03:07 PM

Matthew, maybe you should sell your cobra and buy Lukes 100hp civic!

jclemen

03-07-2003, 03:14 PM

Matt,

My apologies. Seriously. That's not what I meant. My competitve side says that we should all be doing whatever it takes to improve. I find the dakota county track a little boring as its was the same portions used week in and week out when I raced in the back season of 99.

It seems we're talking about two different things. You're talking about having fun. No problem with that whatsoever. I'm talking about showing up to a course and getting my ass kicked cause I can't figure out the decreasing radius or which way to enter/exit the slalom. This is what I long for in this seasons events. Fresh new courses designed by talented/inspired individuals. These same people don't have much to work with at the road course in my opinion.

Keep it coming, but understand I mean no harm or disrespect.

Jeff

Clint

03-07-2003, 10:50 PM

Looking over the posts I see two camps emerging: Those who are interested in becoming competetive drivers, and those who may be car enthusiasts with a desire to drive what they own. I fall into the latter group. I have no aspirations of becoming the champion of F-stock. However, since I bought my Mustang in 1998 I've learned gobs about it's mechanics and I'd like to drive it hard occasionally, too.

So, from where I stand, the question becomes a matter of who MAC is more interested in catering to... those interested in winning autoX events, or those interested in driving his/her car of choice in the way that makes them smile. Maybe we can do both.

Me, I smile when I see third gear. ;)

Drew

03-07-2003, 11:12 PM

Jeff, you raise some valid points in what appears to really be a discussion of the pros and cons of parking lots vs. road courses. In the present case, though, what were talking about is whether MAC should hold one autocross at the St. Cloud facility, with the course making use of the roads in addition to a parking lot. We're not going to have a situation where drivers are going to get bored because they're driving through the same radius turns at event after event.

Further, IMO, if one were to run in a few events at a facility like St. Cloud, with multiple road course options, it should be little different than running on any one parking lot for a few events, with different course designs used each time. The really great thing about St. Cloud is that it gives us a chance to have a challenging course design on an acreage that is many, many times larger than Midway or HTC. If you're concerned about the roads leaving no options for really tight course design features, remember that connected to the roads at St. Cloud are two parking lots, at least one of which would certainly be used for part of the course.

Bottom line: I agree that a facility with a road course could limit course design to a point that it wouldn't be a challenge to drive through the same turns in several events a year, for a number of years. But I disagree with a suggestion that we can't have course designs that are challenging as well as fun at a road course facility that we might use one or two times per year.

BTW, please continue your efforts to find a large parking lot type facility. If anyone can find one, great. But in the absence of one, St. Cloud gives us an opportunity for a large, faster course, that we don't currently have elsewhere.

Drew Baumbach

DCM

03-08-2003, 06:49 AM

Courses? I remember back, [just after the ice age] a kart track at Hastings. It had just one configuration ,that could be run only two ways. What about these poor road racers that have to run the same tracks, over and over?
Do you think they get bored?
Our problem is the size of the parking lots, we are limited in what we can do. Even Canterbury with it's 10 acres of asphalt ended up being similar courses.
What is the answer for both those with lotsa' HP, and my bugeye sprite?
Well, I have a dream..............

[our own facility]
Dwight

Godspeed

03-08-2003, 08:13 AM

Jeff,
Hey, no harm done. Difference of opinion I guess. And even though I'm in this sport for fun (who isn't?), I still like improving my driving skills. I'd just rather do it on a faster course.
You still driving the M3? You'd think someone with a car like that would like a course that allowed the car to stretch it's legs a bit.

washburn

03-08-2003, 12:34 PM

I can appreciate what Jeff is saying. It's just that right now we are limited through no actions of our own...we just have to deal with the limited site thing as best we can. I am not one to necessarily condone road courses for autocrossing either but in this case, and Drew hit it right on the head with his comments, I do not object. I look forward to it in fact, so I can stretch the legs of my Swift a little. I will go to that event for fun Jeff, I travle elsewhere to get the type of experience I know you are talking about.

FWIW, many people in our club have no idea what a quality autocross site can do for you, having never done any events outside Minn. I strongly encourage everyone to get out to a large event. Come with me to Milwaukee. Yes it's a hike, but I drive 3 1/2 hours each way to *every* autocross I go to, so you can do it once! You will be glad you made the trip since your eyes may be opened to the possibilities a large site offers. It is truly a different experience than we have had in the last 4 years in Minn. and combines all the thrills and fun of one venue along with the technical challenges of the other. The way the sport is meant to be played IMHO.

www.scca-milwaukee.org/Solo/2003/03sched.htm

jclemen

03-09-2003, 04:16 PM

I think I'd run the M (garage queen) in parking lot events, even if I had to drive 3.5 hours to get there. That'd be a chance to run it at the preverbial 10/10ths. I will catch up with you, Pat, this year to talk about that. I will run the se-r at events this year at dakota, or anyplace else with a wall or fence. I'm going to have to eat my words when my times are lacking there. You can be sure that I'll be having fun though...

Jeff Clements

fitz

03-09-2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by DCM

Courses? I remember back, [just after the ice age] a kart track at Hastings. It had just one configuration ,that could be run only two ways. What about these poor road racers that have to run the same tracks, over and over?
Do you think they get bored?
Our problem is the size of the parking lots, we are limited in what we can do. Even Canterbury with it's 10 acres of asphalt ended up being similar courses.
What is the answer for both those with lotsa' HP, and my bugeye sprite?
Well, I have a dream..............

[our own facility]
Dwight

Brings up an interesting point. I used the same course design at the last 2 MOWOG 1's (Midway) and I don't think anyone even noticed. :D

StevenMosley

03-09-2003, 07:36 PM

Matt,

I totally see your opinion. I have been working in Beverly Hills for better part of the winter. I see so many 911 Turbo's and M3's that they seem like Camry's and Accord's. The one thing I keep thinking is. What the hell is the point? The traffic is so bad they are not getting anywhere any faster then me in my Dodge Neon rental car. Now I can see why people buy their big ugly Bentley's and cool Hummer H2's out there. They can lay down and take a nap in them well they sit in traffic.

The point I'm trying to make is that anything with more the more then 200hp is not going to help you much at Midway. It is a precision game and doesn't give you the seat of your pants thrills that a fast track gives. Now if you make your way to Miller Park for the CenDiv. You will see the Mustang's and Camaro's that have enough space to crush little VTEC powered crap like I drive. It was setup fast last year, but it still didn't give the same thrill as running a road course in St. Cloud or running the Oval at La Crosse. I'm all for variety and every place has its challenges.

Steven

Steven

Dennis G.

03-10-2003, 09:06 AM

Fitz...Actually, EVERYONE noticed, but why bring it up... Seriously, the only thing you CAN do on a SQUARE where you always enter on the same corner of the square and exit always on the same corner of the square is to go "down and back, (or almost back) down again, back again and exit". Thats it! I'm glad we're talking about all of this because I think we CAN make a technical course, using at least PART of these "road course" layouts, be technical AND fun and make ALMOST everyone happy. And we should be so lucky to have access to an area so long that we get board with the course layouts! We didn't know how good we had it! Thinking back to Canterbury, many COM courses I wouldn't call technical at all...just FAST. The club had the horsepower cars and designed courses that ....um....favored a powerful car. But I lived with it. NO complaints. A little variety!