New tires for SC-1 class

[914 Dave]

Looking for some new skins for the upcoming season, planning to run SC1 which is a "street" tire class. From what I read, it sounds like the Falkens would be a good choice. Anybody running these with any comments on the tire? Tread life as an auto-x tire, (or lack there of), noise, ride quality, stickie or slippy with more laps, likes lots of neg camber... whatever comes to mind. Any other options?

Thanks all-

[Dave Keillor]

Lots of discussion here http://www.miataforum.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=4 (search on Azenis and/or Falken). It's Miata-specific, but useful. Also try the Tires and Wheels (http://www.miataforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=3;DaysPrune=30) section of the same forum.

Dave

[kit]

i run Falken Azenis 196/60/14 as my daily street tire and i think they are awesome. They're as close as you can get to using an R tire (they grip almost the same as the Yoko A032Rs). I can barely chirp them at 2nd and i'm sure i'm not lacking in power. I've never driven them on the track, i have another set for that. But my friends have been fast on them only quoting that it can turn greasy a little fast -- non-issue in autox.

[SalahK]

Here is how I would rate the Azenis compared to other STREET tires (scale of 1 to 10)

Ride = 4
Handling = 6
Grip = 9
Noise = 3
Tramlining = 3

Personally, i would not buy another set of Azenis. For about the same amount of money, the Continental ContiSportContact offers far better Handling, Ride, Noise and Tramlining at the expense of a little bit of Grip.

See my post from last September titled " BFG KD beats Falcon Azenis according to Nov. Grassroots Motorsports " for lap times.

[Dave Keillor]

Salah,

What street tire would you rate as a "10" in grip?

Dave

[StevenMosley]

Dave,

I'm curious what Salah has to say. I love my 205/50R15 Falkens.
For the money nothing else is close.

Great question, but the biggest problem with the great street tire
search is finding the street tires that are the right size. Most companies
only make there best street tires for cars with 16 inch rims and bigger.
15inch rims have more choices, and the pickings get really slim at
14. So it will come down to what is available.

Steven

[Dave Keillor]

The opinions on the Miata forum seem to be that the Azenis has the best grip of any current street tire in an autocross application. Many people have said it's quite sensitive to heat (gets slippery) so it's not as good in track situations (which may account for the GRM results). A number of Miata autocrossers using Azenis said they sprayed their tires between runs to keep them cooler -- especially on warm days or with co-driven cars.

As a tire for ordinary street driving, the majority opinion seems to be that there are better. The Azenis are relatively heavy, have stiff sidewalls (good for auto-x, bad for riding comfort), and wear quickly.

I'm seriously thinking of buying a set of Azenis for the Miata and using them only for autocross. By dedicating them to autocross I'll be able to get a lot more life out of them and because they're a decent street tire I'll be able to use them to drive to/form the event. With something like Victoracers I'd have to put a hitch on the Miata and get a tire trailer (I don't wouldn't want to drive to/from Rochester on a wet day with Victoracers). Besides, the Azenis are way cheaper.

Dave

[StevenMosley]

Dave,

I'm surprised by the comments on them getting slippery on hot days. I found
that they didn't get nearly as slick as the Kuhmo V700's.

I drove my GTI back and forth to La Crosse several times with the Falkens on my GTI and never had any problems. I never noticed them riding bad, but then again the GTI
has H&R race springs that are a little on the stiff side. I also have drove them
in a heavy rain and was impressed with how they handled for such an aggressive
tire. I would recommend them to anyone and the national results prove that they
are they are competitive. If you don't put more then 10k a year on the Miata I would not bother buying extra rims. I would just plan on getting fresh rubber each year or year and a half. Eventually they will heat cycled to rocks so you will want new tires even if they have tread left.

Have fun shopping,

Steven

Steven

[Dave Keillor]

Originally posted by StevenMosley
I'm surprised by the comments on them getting slippery on hot days.

The comment was aimed at track days and/or autocrossing on hot days with short times between runs (as in multi-driver car). I have no first hand experience (yet); these came from the Miata autocross forum. I'd not expect (nor heard of) any kind of problem in ordinary driving in any kind of temperature.

I've got (or will soon have) the extra wheels and am trying to decide what tires to put on them. If I get the Azenis I may never take them off the car! Also, I've heard that the Azenis aren't as sensitive to heat cycling as some performance tires -- like Dunlop SP8000s.

The downside to better tires is that my wife will probably beat me by an even wider margin. :( By the end of last season she was complaining about the hard SP8000s. My mistake was letting her go to the Evolution school last year.

Dave

[SalahK]

Originally posted by Dave Keillor


Salah,

What street tire would you rate as a "10" in grip?

Dave

Based on grassroots's results i would give a 10 to the BFG KD. I have never used a BFG KD, but i have used the Azenis. Randy would be the best person to talk to about the BFG.

I guess what I don't understand is why would you haul a set of Azenis to an autocross event. The point of competing in a street tire class is so that one can go to the event without having to change tires. If your'e going to haul a set of tires, you might as well compete in a race tire category.

I am of the opinion that, unless you are competing on the National/Regional level, the added grip of the Azenis will not outweigh it's less than stellar daily driving characteristics. The azenis will probably improve your time by about 0.2 seconds (on a 40-second course) compared to other high performance street tires like the Conti. 90% of the drivers who compete at the local level, can improve their lap times by working on their driving skills.

What it comes down to is this:
Is the 0.2 seconds, worth owning a tire that drives like crap on the street. If I were going to keep my Type-R past this summer, you can rest assured that I will replace the Azenis with something else.

[weidnerpaul]

Help!!!
I need Tyre advice---
FoR a "sticky" tyre setup should I bring my Mini with the stylish black steel wheels and Blizzaks next summer??
:D :p :D

Paul

[kit]

Salah, if i recall correctly, didn't you run A032Rs as your street tires. I thought they're worse than the Azenis. It's really loud and stiff. gone softer now? :D

FWIW, i do have to run very low pressure in my azenis for decent ride and this with a relatively high-profile tires. You'd think that CA road is smooth, yeah right. If i raise my pressure to 32 then the car would feel like it's going to tear apart. Road noise is obviouisly in the upper limit and i think that really has something to do with the aggressive thread blocks. It grips really well on damp condition, almost as good as dry, but a downpour will get it to hydroplane easily.

[SalahK]

Originally posted by kit


Salah, if i recall correctly, didn't you run A032Rs as your street tires. I thought they're worse than the Azenis. It's really loud and stiff. gone softer now? :D


I ran A032Rs as my daily driver/track day tires during 2001. They were mounted on 15x7 Kosei wheels. I never did a Mac event with those tires because I would get bumped to CSP with that particular combination. The Yokos are great for a smooth track like brainerd but terrible on the street. It is the loudest tire i have ever come across.

In my opinon, the best all-round tire for street/track/autocross is the Toyo Proxes RA-1. The Toyo is the Perfect tire for a weekend warrior who wants to do autox/track/street but is too lazy to change tires. It is race compound so you cannot compete in the street tire category, however it is the only tire I know of that grips almost as well as dedicated autox/track tires while providing good on-road characteristics. Go to onlinetires.com if you're interested.

[miata#37]

914dave,
I ran Azenis last year on my Miata in size 195/60-14, the same size you're looking at. I paid a little less than $50/ea. New, I felt they had grip comparable to the 1 year old Victoracers I ran the year before. The tires were very progressive at their break away point. The dynamic coefficient of friction wasn't that much less than the static coefficient making the car easy to catch once it started to slide. Wet traction was incredible up to about 70mph in heavy rain; probably greater than the dry grip my previous all-seasons had. I ran two full seasons worth of autox last year (MAC & DMVR). By the end of the year, I could tell that they had fallen off a bit in ultimate grip and they were just starting to squeal when they slid. Wear-wise, they're just down to the wear bars on the outer half of the tire. I think a large amount of the wear and tear came from running them at Fairmont.

I never had issues with the tires overheating. I think those people who do are making a lot of runs in short order and/or are autoxing down in the sun belt.

As for comfort and noise on the street, I don't think these were very high on the priority list when the tires were designed. They got louder as they got older. They aren't the best tracking tire. My AGX's and alignment settings probably didn't help the situation. But let's make a reality check: they ARE streetable and we're not buying them because we want to cruise around on straight roads and listen to the radio. I did pick up a set of used rims and re-mounted my all-seasons for weekday driving and road trips but I drove the Azenis 120+ miles to/from each event. I ran 26psi on the street, which made the ride bearable.

They seemed to like pressures around 36/34psi F/R for autox. I'd like to get a tire pyrometer to fine tune those pressures next season.

Yes, I'm planning on buying another set for SC1.


Salah,
The BFG KD did score better than the Azenis in the GRM tests. However, they don't make them in any 14" sizes so they aren't really an option without spending even more money on rims.

Peace

[Dave Keillor]

Based on grassroots's results i would give a 10 to the BFG KD. I have never used a BFG KD, but i have used the Azenis. Randy would be the best person to talk to about the BFG.

I guess what I don't understand is why would you haul a set of Azenis to an autocross event. The point of competing in a street tire class is so that one can go to the event without having to change tires. If your'e going to haul a set of tires, you might as well compete in a race tire category.

I am of the opinion that, unless you are competing on the National/Regional level, the added grip of the Azenis will not outweigh it's less than stellar daily driving characteristics. The azenis will probably improve your time by about 0.2 seconds (on a 40-second course) compared to other high performance street tires like the Conti. 90% of the drivers who compete at the local level, can improve their lap times by working on their driving skills.

What it comes down to is this:
Is the 0.2 seconds, worth owning a tire that drives like crap on the street. If I were going to keep my Type-R past this summer, you can rest assured that I will replace the Azenis with something else.

I didn't intend to haul the Azenis to the event. That would be the case with something like Victoracers. With Azenis I'd switch the wheels in the comfort of my own garage then drive to/from the event. The reason I'm thinking about using them only for autocross is to reduce the rate of wear that would occur with a street driven tire. Also, Azenis are about 1/2 the price of Kuhmos.

I'm not looking to gain 0.2 against another performance tire. I'm only looking to gain something against the rather hard SP8000s currently on the car without going all the way to race rubber and therefore a tire trailer. The SP8000s are still okay for street driving so I wouldn't care about how the Azenis performed on the street.

Dave

[kit]

Originally posted by Salah Khuhro
In my opinon, the best all-round tire for street/track/autocross is the Toyo Proxes RA-1. The Toyo is the Perfect tire for a weekend warrior who wants to do autox/track/street but is too lazy to change tires. It is race compound so you cannot compete in the street tire category, however it is the only tire I know of that grips almost as well as dedicated autox/track tires while providing good on-road characteristics. Go to onlinetires.com if you're interested.


i have to agree with you on this. I've done several track events here in the west coast in my A032Rs and they gave up at my 3rd track event (after a season of autocross there in MN, but still...). A NASA racer laughed at me and told me to wise up and buy a real race tire like the RA-1s. As it turns out, spec miata drivers swore by them. They grip less than the Kumhos but the grip stays the whole long life of the RA-1s. The best part is they can be driven on the street (to and fro track, as most weekend warriors do). Having said that i'll be replacing my track set with RA-1s in a few months as soon as i pony up the cash (i'm currently loaning a set of hoosier tires for the track, now talk about grip!).

[914 Dave]

miata37: whats DMVR?

I have decided to take the plunge and purchase a set of the Falkins. I think miata37 summed it up in saying lets get real here, smooth quite ride is not what these tires are all about, so don't get to hung up on it. For me, the 914 is a sunny day weekend autox car, and listening to the radio is optional, as well as difficult enough with the air cooled motor in your back pocket. For you, your needs may be different. If it gets me to the DQ on friday night, and to the track and back on the weekend, thats good enough. It should be interesting to see how they compair to the 4 yr old AVS intermediates that were on the car. When I switched from the 165-15 all season donuts on the car when I bought it, I thought the AVS tires were "da bomb". Should be fun to see how the car goes with real almost race tires...

Oh, and Paul, I believe its "tires". Perhaps your spell check is a bit off.

[Dave Keillor]

I've decided to go with the Azenis, too. The next question is what is the best/cheapest source? Discount Tires Direct has 195/60-14 for $50 each with free shipping. Any know any better and/or cheaper sources?

Dave Keillor

[Jon Kotek]

Believe it or not I actually got a really good deal at Tires Plus on mine, like 48 bucks last year. They did have to order them in but I figured it was easier then dealing with onlinetires or the like. Not sure if it matters but I did it at Apple Valley Tires Plus

Jon

[Dave Keillor]

Tires Plus in Rochester wants $49.95 plus shipping (around $8 per tire). Mounting and balancing is $11.95 and up -- even if the mounting is on bare carry-in rims. Guess I'll look elsewhere.

[Jon Kotek]

I am surprised that they are charging you shipping.

[miata#37]

914Dave,
DMVR=Des Moines Valley Region of the SCCA

The upside to buy Azenis for $50/ea from Discount Tires Direct is that they don't charge shipping. If anyone finds a source locally that doesn't charge shipping and will mount and balance for free, please let us all know!

[914 Dave]

Azenis arrived today, via discount tire. Oh boy.....