Meetin'

[DCM]

The monthly meeting is this Wednesday at Parrishes supper club.
You'all comin'?

[AlexL]

Not me. I have school on Wednesday nights now.

[Shrep]

I plan to go. :)

[wannabfast]

would go, but im workin

[914 Dave]

Would much rather be there than where I'll be- I won an all expense paid trip to visit the remains of Katrina down south. Gone for 3 weeks, but thankfully will back in time for evo and the season ending valley fair double header...

[shane86]

Can't make it this month.... Goin' to mid-ohio to watch a friend race.

[SmokingTires]

I'll be there for sure. I have some stuff to bring up.


I think we should put on the bill to discuss not allowing vehicles that can't be legally licensed on the street to throphy. (i.e. F-500s, karts,etc)

[phile]

I'll be there for sure. I have some stuff to bring up.


I think we should put on the bill to discuss not allowing vehicles that can't be legally licensed on the street to throphy. (i.e. F-500s, karts,etc)

F-500 cars are SCCA race cars recognized in F-Modified class along with Solo Vees. Getting these reatricted at Met Council events is a non-starter. The only restriction might be the EM may call for street-legal exhaust at some sites.

Karts are not recognized because Met Council rules require seat belts.

Barring non-street-legal cars from MAC events is just not gonna happen.

[phile]

Would much rather be there than where I'll be- I won an all expense paid trip to visit the remains of Katrina down south. Gone for 3 weeks, but thankfully will back in time for evo and the season ending valley fair double header...

And who didn't see that coming?

I plan to be there. Dunno if I will get into town late tomorrow night or somtime on Wednesday. Have to see a Triumph vintage racer in Iowa about some TR4 parts on the way back.

We had the track day today at Gateway International. I shot TONS of pix.

We had the autcross yesterday in the car park at the same track (after GM welched on us at the last second-long story). I didn't take any pix at all. I was too busy running, working, meeting old friends and being incredibly hot and sweaty. Saint Louis Region (they guys who sold MAC the trailer!) came to the rescue and folded us into their event. My record is secure. I have trophied at every convention I have attended that offered autocross trophies. I was third in the Elise class, two tenths out of second. Yes, you read that sentence correctly. I had the use of an Elise all to myself all day. There are some very trusting and generous folks in this world. This one went on the Wine Tour with his wife in their Esprit Turbo and threw me the keys to the Elise. At the trophy presentation at the dinner, I elbowed the Meet Heat away from the microphone and awarded the trophy to the car owner. Flip Shockley, rest his soul, did the same for me three decades ago, and it was time to pay it forward.

Lots of stories to tell. I hope to see you all Wednesday and bore you with as many of them as possible.

[73GT]

Phil
Is there anything else you want to tell us ;)
I will be there and when I get home tonight I'll make the agenda.



Lee F

[phile]

Phil
Is there anything else you want to tell us ;)

Lee F
You wil have to wait. I am checking the weather now on the hotel computer and am hitting the bricks in about five minutes. Trailer is all hooked up.

[washburn]

I think we should put on the bill to discuss not allowing vehicles that can't be legally licensed on the street to throphy. (i.e. F-500s, karts,etc)

Just out of curiousity, ......... why?

[K.Beumer]

I'll be there for sure. I have some stuff to bring up.


I think we should put on the bill to discuss not allowing vehicles that can't be legally licensed on the street to throphy. (i.e. F-500s, karts,etc)

Geez I guess I might be a little curious as to why you would think this also! F500's and Solo Vees might be the only thing you see locally but would you not want to allow any other Mod cars? Or are you just saying you just don't want them to trophy? If that is the case I wouldn't have a problem with that because I really don't give a rip about a trophy! Maybe we should just not count our times at all so you can move up the list in Pax! Like I care. (sorry it just struck a nerve)

Keith

[AlexL]

I think we should put on the bill to discuss not allowing vehicles that can't be legally licensed on the street to throphy. (i.e. F-500s, karts,etc)
Why? It's not like you're competing against them and they're robbing you of a trophy.

[pinhead]

Just out of curiousity, ......... why?

I have to say, I'm curious, too.

Requiring a car to be "licenseable" could get murky pretty quick. I think there are a whole lot of Prepared cars that aren't technically street legal (non-DOT rubber, for example). Heck, I'm sure that in some states (maybe even MN) STX and SP cars aren't technically street legal due to the partial or complete removal of emissions control systems ?

[StevenMosley]

Just out of curiousity, ......... why?

Because it was hard enough losing to him in his wabbit. Now losing to him in a snowmobile by 30 seconds is even harder to digest.

[MNbiker]

Requiring a car to be "licenseable" could get murky pretty quick. I think there are a whole lot of Prepared cars that aren't technically street legal (non-DOT rubber, for example). Heck, I'm sure that in some states (maybe even MN) STX and SP cars aren't technically street legal due to the partial or complete removal of emissions control systems ?

In many states, the ONLY street-legal autocross vehicles would be those in Stock and (maybe) STS classes. Requiring all vehicles to be street-legal is simply a bad idea....

[Shrep]

I always forget...what time are we sposed to be there???

[MNbiker]

I always forget...what time are we sposed to be there???

Formal Meeting ---> 7:30pm

Informal Meeting ---> any time after 7:00pm

[jgrothe]

You know that I would rather "open" the participation list to Karts.

[esper]

I'll be there for sure. I have some stuff to bring up.


I think we should put on the bill to discuss not allowing vehicles that can't be legally licensed on the street to throphy. (i.e. F-500s, karts,etc)

Umm...

That's why they have classing. If you're competing against one of these vehicles, chances are that it ain't in a street legal vehicle.

I think the way trophies work is fine. I can't think of any instances where a non street legal car "stealing" a trophy from someone has ever been an issue. Part of the appeal of autocross is that it allows non street legal vehicles a place to play. I'm sure everyone who drives one (there are a lot here) would agree with me.

[Darryl]

Start with the SCCA, if you can get it past them we’ll do the same.

[73GT]

BTW
Parrish's Supper Club is on West 7th Street
Exact address is 2176 West 7th street, St Paul

We meet in the basement.
Meeting starts at 7:30 Hope to see you there.


Lee F.

[AlexL]

In many states, the ONLY street-legal autocross vehicles would be those in Stock and (maybe) STS classes. Requiring all vehicles to be street-legal is simply a bad idea....
I have a STOCK car that isn't street legal (stupid front plate laws).

[SmokingTires]

Just out of curiousity, ......... why?


I'm hardly concerned about PAX. I just think they have a largely unfair advantage over everyone else running full size cars. Even the best drivers in our races still fall 5+ second behind them. To me, having a vehicle that only weighs 500lbs (estimate) has a great advantage over even the most stripped down cars. And the size difference is big also (I would be interested to measure the width in comparison to one of the smaller cars that run like Paul's Sprite)

I'm not shooting down that these guys aren't good drivers. Just that they have vehicles with a large advantage. An Example being MOWOG 5 with Randy being the fastest car of the day, placing 7 seconds behind Kieth in the F-500.


I should also re-phrase what I said. By street legal I meant previous to modification. Even Factory Five kit cars are licenseable (sp?). However I don't think it would be possible to license an F-500 (I use that example because I don't know the names of any of the other kart-style cars)


I just sit here and think about it, looking at how these guys run, as well as some of the best d, rivers hereand it seems like no matter how good of a driver I become, I will never be able to take FTD if there is an F-500 or other F1-kart (not sure what term to use...) there.


I'm not against them running at the events at all. I love seeing them run. And if F-500's and Solo Vee's are the only vehicles that get into F-Mod, then I am entirely fine with them being able to throphy there (since they don't have an advantage over anyone in that class). But taking FTD is much easier for them, and I feel unfair.


Darryl: We're not SCCA. So we don't Have to follow everything they go by. Which is why there will be discussion of having STS2 be a class for next year, even though SCCA hasn't made it a nationally recognised class. I don't see why this couldn't be discussed here.

[weidnerpaul]

You know the saying:

You want to go faster?
How much do you want to spend...

Autocross isn't "fair" in that all things being equal the person who spends more

and "spend" could be:

tires/rims (710's with Volks...)
suspension (adjustable shocks in stock class)
time (improving the nut behind the wheel)
driver classes
or
a F500
Lotus Elise
or
Whatever...

If you start excluding when do you stop?

Pax isn't perfect (and DP pax sucks...) but if you want to compare your times use that.

You could exclude F500 from FTD but still have the issues above...

[esper]

So taking FTD in a go kart bothers you?


Why not just start comparing when the ridiculous cars end?

It doesn't bother me that I can't beat a motorcycle in a drag race. It doezsn't bother me that the same driver in a faster car will always be faster, thats why PAX exists.

I call this a total non issue. It's not like FTD has a cash payout. It seems to me like you are just more competitive about FTD and time comparison than most people (not a personal judgement, but apparent from your signature, and other posts) but my guess is that this wouldn't really have much support for a vote as it essentially changes nothing as I doint really see that many other people that concerned with FTD. Even if you don't call it "FTD" it won't change the fact that a f500 will still beat everybody else by 7 seconds.

I think it's not right to turn people away or treat them differently just becuase they have a fast car. How many times do you think they get to enjoy those things? they can't drive them on the street, I say let them have their fun, and be included just like everyone else's cars.

[AlexL]

I'm hardly concerned about PAX. I just think they have a largely unfair advantage over everyone else running full size cars. Even the best drivers in our races still fall 5+ second behind them. To me, having a vehicle that only weighs 500lbs (estimate) has a great advantage over even the most stripped down cars. And the size difference is big also (I would be interested to measure the width in comparison to one of the smaller cars that run like Paul's Sprite)

I'm not shooting down that these guys aren't good drivers. Just that they have vehicles with a large advantage. An Example being MOWOG 5 with Randy being the fastest car of the day, placing 7 seconds behind Kieth in the F-500.


I should also re-phrase what I said. By street legal I meant previous to modification. Even Factory Five kit cars are licenseable (sp?). However I don't think it would be possible to license an F-500 (I use that example because I don't know the names of any of the other kart-style cars)


I just sit here and think about it, looking at how these guys run, as well as some of the best d, rivers hereand it seems like no matter how good of a driver I become, I will never be able to take FTD if there is an F-500 or other F1-kart (not sure what term to use...) there.


I'm not against them running at the events at all. I love seeing them run. And if F-500's and Solo Vee's are the only vehicles that get into F-Mod, then I am entirely fine with them being able to throphy there (since they don't have an advantage over anyone in that class). But taking FTD is much easier for them, and I feel unfair.


Darryl: We're not SCCA. So we don't Have to follow everything they go by. Which is why there will be discussion of having STS2 be a class for next year, even though SCCA hasn't made it a nationally recognised class. I don't see why this couldn't be discussed here.
So what? That's the reason we have classes. There are always going to be some classes that are faster than others, and a good driver in a fast class will still have no trouble beating a sililarly good driver in a slower class. You can't go around banning cars just because they are faster than yours.

If you want to go for FTD, you should start with a car that's capable of it. Why not set your sights on "FTD with doors" or fast PAX instead of whining about cars that are faster than yours?

[K.Beumer]

I just sit here and think about it, looking at how these guys run, as well as some of the best d, rivers hereand it seems like no matter how good of a driver I become, I will never be able to take FTD if there is an F-500 or other F1-kart (not sure what term to use...) there.

If it is FTD you are in search of you MUST learn to accept that that is not going to happen in the immediate future. I say this because it has taken me many years of learning from others in the club like Lee Frisvold, Randy Williams, Bob Fogt,Pat Washburn and the list goes on and on. I have learned from the seasoned veterans as well as the novices! The first thing to learn is not to compete with others and just work on making yourself a better driver. Compare yourself to the other drivers in your class and also the times of the faster drivers and make steady progress at closing the gap. Just a piece of history I know you seem to go to Lacrosse for a few events so watch the red Rabbit GTI and see how you do against Dan Hampton's times. I used to own that car and had a few FTD's in it as well!

[914 Dave]

Ban everything but 914's !!!

In particular, those pesky Miatas...

Actually, turn all that competitive juice inward, grasshopper.

Drive against yourself, not others. O00hhhmmmmmmmm...... (insert meditation sounds here)

Watch as your times improve on the raw time listings.

Shoot for a fast PAX.

While PAX is not perfect, it is a good gauge of YOU as a driver. The guys who are PAXing huge in their class are showing that they, in cars of similar capability, are the better DRIVER.

If its public notice you want for running a hot time, relax. Those who are fast drivers and follow the results will notice...

I think it was M3 or M4 that I got FTD in Rob's Emod monster. That was cool, but I think I was more gratified by my top 10 finish in my 95hp aircooled antique that day.

Can 30+ yr old technology be competitive in a "street" class? Maybe. Is a Miata a better auto cross car, stock for stock, out of the box? You betcha. I drive that car because I love it, and compete against myself. I've been autocrossing that car for, I dunno, 3-4 yrs, and at the end of each year I'm convinced there is more to be found in the car as well as driver for the next season. I look at the raw times, and think of how many cars beat me with more than 100 hp, and how many with more than 100 hp did I beat. It makes me smile. And motivates me to try to move me and that silly german car farther up the list for next event. Not to hack on you, but think of your motivations, set goals accordingly, and most of all,

DON'T FORGET TO HAVE FUN!!!!!

[SmokingTires]

If it is FTD you are in search of you MUST learn to accept that that is not going to happen in the immediate future. I say this because it has taken me many years of learning from others in the club like Lee Frisvold, Randy Williams, Bob Fogt,Pat Washburn and the list goes on and on. I have learned from the seasoned veterans as well as the novices! The first thing to learn is not to compete with others and just work on making yourself a better driver. Compare yourself to the other drivers in your class and also the times of the faster drivers and make steady progress at closing the gap. Just a piece of history I know you seem to go to Lacrosse for a few events so watch the red Rabbit GTI and see how you do against Dan Hampton's times. I used to own that car and had a few FTD's in it as well!


Oh? That's your car? Nice build I must say. That GTI is a beast. I actually ran pretty close to Dan on the Practice day at Winona. I was running Paul's Sprite that day. I believe I ran in the 51's for my fastest raw time. I think Dale Bahr put down FTD breaking into the high 48's.



It appears that everyone didn't read my post fully.... I didn't say ban them from events. I even said I wanted them their. Just that I personally believe that giving awards for fast time of day (like we do), leans on an unfair advantage.


Paul, you entirely read between the lines. You assumed I meant being a great driver without modding my car. That is untrue. I meant to imply that with a good car and good driving, I still couldn't win.

My point that is even with a fully built car, and a good driver, a F-500 or Solo Vee has an advantage.

And as proven at MOWOG 1, even an Elise can run dead last:
http://mnautox.com/points/2005/mowog1_unbumped_raw.htm




But whatever, people are to the point of passing judgements without having full grounds for them. Which means it's time to give up this debate.

It's a personal opinion. Everyone doesn't need to get all up in arms about it...

[pinhead]

Mike - how do you think I feel? I drive an HS car, which is THE slowest class (besides maybe some junior karts). But you don't see me lobbying to eliminate all classes faster than HS ;) If you drive a slow car, just look at the indexed times, that's what I do.

And what does MAC give out for FTD awards? I never saw anything (not that I usually hang out for trophies.....)

[washburn]

Just that I personally believe that giving awards for fast time of day (like we do), leans on an unfair advantage.

No one gives awards for this. It's the obvious answer to a obviously natural question...."Who was fastest today?". BUT, soon after that question gets answered, the next quesion (and the *REAL* one) gets asked..."O.K., he was in a formula car, it was a given. Who really *drove* the fastest?". This is why PAX and RTP were invented. This is why we run in classes.




My point that is even with a fully built car, and a good driver, a F-500 or Solo Vee has an advantage.

Sorry dude, but your absolutely wrong on this one. FTD means squat. Absolutely nothing, and you maybe need to re-think your outlook on that. I showed up in my Formula Ford a few years ago, and would take FTD all the time. You would say that this is a better prepared car, right? Wrong! I don't think I ever indexed better than 25th in that car. I sucked in it becuase it wasn't suited to those types of courses. It wasn't as well prepared as others. The fact that it was faster raw time means jack. It's *supposed* to be faster...it's a freakin' race car for g*ds sake. The point is the FTD means diddly. I never felt good about getting raw FTD...it was expected in a machine like that. I have WAY more respect for the HS driver who I beat by 10 seconds raw, but he out indexed me by a second.

Index is the ONLY comparitor across classes. Theoretically, you should not even be looking at what cars in other classes did since they have absolutely no impact on you. You run, and trophy, only against cars in your class. Like I said, it's simply a natural thing to want to know who did better across classes, so index is the best we have to see.



It's a personal opinion. Everyone doesn't need to get all up in arms about it...

People get in arms about it because what you are really suggesting, although you don't know it, is that we dispose of the class system. Let's all race for FTD as one group, and make rules to level the playing field for cars that need some help. It's a slippery slope...what's next? Penalize Corvettes because *they* are faster. There's no end. I know you don't really mean that...I'm blowing it out of proportion to make a point. Compete with raw times across all classes and you effectively eliminate the rentire class system. Plus, you mentioned that we should discuss this at the board meeting as a possible rules change...that makes it a point of discussion.

I remember worrying about stuff like this when I first started. Hopefully, we've maybe given you a different way to view it. To reiterate...if you posted a time in your Camry that was 3 seconds slower than my Golf, but you out-indexed me, I would be all over you trying to learn how you got so freakin' fast! This is where its at...this is where the cream rises to the top, not FTD.

[magicsammy]

can't make the meeting tonight.

I'd say Pat pretty much nailed it

[rdub]

Mike ,your enthusiasm is good,keep it up!
But my advice to you is to LISTEN and LEARN.
Spend your energy driving,your results will speak for themselves
and you won't have to run around trying to tell people how you did.
Also just one more piece of advice,take your results off your post,its not right!
When you can PAX any car in the top 10 you will know you're doing well.
Everyone will talk to you and listen to what you have to say.
TOO Harsh,maybe?
Also you are being seduced by THE DARKSIDE,come talk to me and I'll tell you about what that means.

[SUV-ETR]

Can 30+ yr old technology be competitive in a "street" class? Maybe.

<clears throat loudly>

:D

OK...so my car is just about as "unstreetable" as "street legal" can get, and it's only going to get worse. But it does have plates, and will as long as I can convince the DMV and law enforcement that it deserves them!

Yeah, so I got pulled over for having tires sticking out past the fenders last month. How the heck else am I supposed to heat cycle the tires?? Yes, officer, you really can see the "DOT" rating right on the side of the tire. [unbuckles harnesses, removes steering wheel, performs "human pretzel" to exit car] See? Right there. Yeah, that really is how much tread they have new. You can still see the remnants of the sticker on the contact patch, right there... :D

A somewhat exaggerated (I didn't actually have to get out of the car), but otherwise true story. But it perhaps indicates the complete irrelavance that "streetable" has. What's funny is that Phil's mostly-stock Lotus is practically as much a "real" race car as you can get. Lighter, and with far better suspension than my car. It just has that 60's vintage smoke machine in the back, which wasn't even that powerful when new. Stick something more comparable power/weight wise to Keith's F500 in the back, and it'll go nearly as fast.

Neal

Personally, I think we should take your FTD PAX finish, add it to your FTD RAW finish, and give the lowest score half the entry fees for the event. :evil:

[tmalzahn]

Mike,

I have been autocrossing for 19 years now. Over the years, I have managed to pax in the top 10 on and off. Now, with the class I am in (SM), it is tough to pax up there as the deck is stacked against you. You have to be a really good driver (notice I didn't say anything about the car) to PAX in the top 10 with an SM car. That is why I respect Neal (and many others) and listen intently to everything he says about car setup and driving line (he regularly paxes in the top 10).

On the subject of FTD, I would tend to agree that this trophy is rather misleading. Maybe the trophy should be for FTD PAX. (I am not sure we even do the FTD trophy any more...)

My end goal here is to encourage you to keep improving your driving skills and your mental preparation for each course. For autocrossing, I like to try to get into the head of Mark Daddio (the driver from another planet): How does he think? Why can he drive a course so well immediately? Does he visualize things different from me? Can he see a proper line quicker than I can? I have never met the man, but in thinking this way, it gets me out of my thinking and forces me to re-evaluate my driving and mental preparation.

-Tim

[washburn]

<clears throat loudly>


Yeah, so I got pulled over for having tires sticking out past the fenders last month. How the heck else am I supposed to heat cycle the tires?? Yes, officer, you really can see the "DOT" rating right on the side of the tire. [unbuckles harnesses, removes steering wheel, performs "human pretzel" to exit car] See? Right there. Yeah, that really is how much tread they have new. You can still see the remnants of the sticker on the contact patch, right there...

Hee,hee. 1997 travelling back from Nationals, Dave Bahl gets pulled over. I'm stopped in my car too as we were both in excess of 80 MPH. Literally had to show the cop the stamp on the sidewall, he whips out a camera and gets photo's. Remeber Dave? Funny..I have it on video. (Dave scratching his nose with his middle finger behnd the cops back!) :) He let us go with a warning.

[SUV-ETR]

He let us go with a warning.

Actually, to be fair, I should mention that there was more to the story, and in the end the guy ended up being one of the nicest officers I've come into contact with. I think he though I was a kid out causing trouble, but changed his mind about me when he realized that the car was for real and that my story about the tires, autocross, etc seemed to actually jive with the car. He let me off with a warning too.

The only potential down side is that I've now become old enough to be "respectable". :(

[SmokingTires]

On the subject of FTD, I would tend to agree that this trophy is rather misleading. Maybe the trophy should be for FTD PAX. (I am not sure we even do the FTD trophy any more...)

-Tim

I like your idea, and thanks for the advice.


Pat, thank you for the calm reply. And I understand where your coming from.

I guess I just don't think in the same terms that people who have been auto-crossing for longer do. I personally don't follow the pax very closely. It's not something I often look at when judging my driving. My motivation to improve my driving is wanting to take FTD. And that's what I work for. It has give me something to focus on and work at. I'm improving as much as possible.

I guess I will just have to talk to more of the Senior races and try to take on their view of the use of PAXing.



Randy, I'll look for you at the next race.
As for the times in the Sig., I removed those last night. They were from back when I ran the Camry. I wanted to take pride in not running last in a Family sedan :D But I'm on to a new era now. We'll just have to see how it goes.

[914 Dave]

Uh, so Neal, how many water intercooled supercharged Scircco's came off the line 30 yrs ago? Your(and Katie's) car is bordering on beyond being able to define... I think "just plain cool" works as well as anything, if you have to describe what the car has morphed into. Put a stock 1.6(I think thats what it had) 8 valve back in there and we'll have that under 100 hp showdown...

[AlexL]

I guess I will just have to talk to more of the Senior races and try to take on their view of the use of PAXing.
PAX is simply the best way to compare your driving against the entire field. It's not perfect, but it helps take the car out of the equation.

I don't know what the really fast guys do, but when I want to see how I'm doing relative to everyone else, I look at the PAX time, but even then, one number doesn't tell you the whole story.

PAX smoothes out the big differences (comparing drivers in very different classes), but it gets lost in the small stuff. It doesn't compensate for how well suited a car is for its class (a fully-prepped '94 Miata R should be way faster than a bone stock '88 MR2 on all-seasons, despite them running in the same class with the same index). It also doesn't take into account course-dependencies (ES and FS have almost the same PAX, but I think anyone can imagine a course that would favor a Miata over a Camaro and vice-versa).

You always have to put things into context. When looking at raw times, of course you're going to be slower than an F Mod car. PAX gives you an idea of about how much slower you should be.

If some day, I do make top PAX, once I'm done celebrating, the first thing I'm going to think about is how the rest of the top drivers were doing. I don't know if there's anyone in the club who I haven't beaten in PAX at one time or another, but I think there are a lot of drivers who are far better than me. Sometimes they drive under-prepped cars, sometimes they're just not driving near their full potential. The question I have to end up asking myself is how they would have done if we were driving the same car and they were driving at the top of their game. If I would have won or it would have been a close race, I'm satisfied, if not, I need to drive faster.

[rdub]

way to go MIKE
you are now moving away from the dark side!

[SmokingTires]

^
Thanks Alex. Some of what you listed is why I am not happy with looking at the PAX. But in the coming events I will take it into more consideration.


Uh, so Neal, how many water intercooled supercharged Scircco's came off the line 30 yrs ago? Your(and Katie's) car is bordering on beyond being able to define... I think "just plain cool" works as well as anything, if you have to describe what the car has morphed into. Put a stock 1.6(I think thats what it had) 8 valve back in there and we'll have that under 100 hp showdown...


*cough*
http://www.carsoup.com/used/detail.asp?usedVehicleID=2224211&minYear=1943&maxYear=2006&searchID=14315053&vehicleTypeID=1&UVViewID=4&Page=1

A second Auto-Cross car for Neal maybe?

[SmokingTires]

way to go MIKE
you are now moving away from the dark side!

I'll still be looking to talk to you, just to steal tips on running the course ;)

[Shrep]

I'll still be looking to talk to you, just to steal tips on running the course ;)Nice to meet you last night, Mike. It's always nice to be able to put a face w/ the name/car :D

[SmokingTires]

Nice to meet you last night, Mike. It's always nice to be able to put a face w/ the name/car :D

Ah! We met? Sorry, last night is kind of a blur for me on who I talked to. I haven't gotten much sleep in the last week.

Just remember, you have to match the face with a different car now ;)
http://www.foxcreektrading.com/autox/waterloo-8-28-05/fox1110.jpg

[Shrep]

Ah! We met? Sorry, last night is kind of a blur for me on who I talked to. I haven't gotten much sleep in the last week.

Just remember, you have to match the face with a different car now ;)
http://www.foxcreektrading.com/autox/waterloo-8-28-05/fox1110.jpg
Ahh...well, at least it'll be easy to spot still ;) I was the guy sitting next to Phil...Justin

[914 Dave]

Anything of merit discussed at the meeting?

[weidnerpaul]

Just that Dave P. was volunteered for lots to do at Mowog 8
:D

Kinda a low key meeting, it recapped MOWOG7, no exciting new biz...

[AlexL]

^
Thanks Alex. Some of what you listed is why I am not happy with looking at the PAX. But in the coming events I will take it into more consideration.
But the thing is, those same factors are still present, and to a much larger degree, when comparing raw times.

[StevenMosley]

What is PAX? Never heard of it.

[SUV-ETR]

What is PAX? Never heard of it.

That's the character on Saturday Night Live. You know, the one where they kept wondering if it was a male or female?

PaaaaX?

[AlexL]

What is PAX? Never heard of it.
It's latin for peace.