Koni Install Help

[spboarder17]

I am seriously considering ordering a set of Koni Sport shocks for my Celica in the couple weeks :D . I am wondering if anyone has suggestions for a good shop to get these installed and about what it would cost to do so? OR, for the mechanics out there, would anyone be willing to help a lost, toolless soul :? install some Koni's??? I would be willing to provide $/food/beer/co-drives or any combination of the above. Apparently, the fronts involve cutting into the old struts, removing the "guts", and putting in the new inserts. The rears are supposed to be complete shocks. Any suggestions on shops or takers for the DIY road???

[esper]

My brother installed KYB AGX's that were similar. I don't think he had too many problems getting it done. He said he had to do some amount of cutting of some plastic parts of his car, but he didn't mention it being very difficult.

[ITSrotary]

Scott,

I know nothing about Celica's but assuming you have struts up front and shocks rear it is pretty straightforward. It's really not as difficult as it may sound, but you do need to have some basic tools and mechanical ability. If you don't have both then your stuck having someone do it for you which usually means $$$.

The problem is not difficulty but time required to do the job, which again means $$$, if your paying somebody to do it.

To give you a general idea of what is involved here's a quick rundown:

Front
1.Remove front strut assembly from car (spring hat and all)
2.Compress spring with spring compressor
3.Remove nut holding hat on and remove hat and spring
4.Cut strut body 1/4" to 1/2" below top of body (use hacksaw, hand ginder w/cut blade, pipe cutter, etc) Your not cutting clean through, just the housing which is not very thick walled.
5.Guts will fall out. This effectively creates a "holder" for the new insert.
6.Install new shock (which is really an insert) into gutted strut housing
(Usually if your housing doesn't have a hole in the bottom you will need to drill a hole and a bolt is used to secure the insert in the housing)
7.Reinstall spring/hat/nut onto strut assembly
8.Reinstall onto car

Rear
Really easy, should just be 3-4 bolts/nuts if just a shock

It will be a little more involved than that but this should give you the basic steps of whats required so you can get a more accurate estimate from a shop.

If you do end up taking it to somebody anything you can do to minimize their time/labor will save you money. Example, if you can at least remove the struts from the car and just bring them those vs having them remove them will save you $$$.

Figure on a day for a reasonable shop if they are doing the whole job, front and rear, which is 6-8 hours = $$$. I suspect most of them will see it as a PITA job and charge accordingly. Make sure they understand what needs to be done with the housings if they haven't done it before.

Check around on some of the celica forums. I'm sure someone has done a DIY write-up on this mod with greater detail.

Good Luck,
Steve

[Dave H.]

Hey Scott,
I've got a good selection of hand tools, a jack, and some jackstands (I do own a 914 afterall :lol: ) I've also got a friend with a garage and more tools. I've done a bunch of suspension stuff and we both love to wrench. Let me know what you think.

David

[spboarder17]

Dave,

I'd love the help of you and your friend if you two are interested and willing. If you guys have the necessary tools for what Steve helpfully explained (thanks Steve!), I'd be greatful for some help. As I said, I'll provide $/food/beer/co-drives :D I am still talking to some Celica drivers, trying to figure out if the Koni's are a valuable investment given the superb stock suspension. I'm already planning on R's + proper alignment for next season...just trying to decide if Koni's will subtract enough ticks to be worthy of my student loan money :lol:

[rdub]

You're fast enough,get really soft "Leakmore no-damper" brand shocks at Checker.LOL

[Dave H.]

Scott,
No problem, I love to turn wrenches and help out another poor starving student. My summer fun is funded entirely by grants and fellowships!! All the g-stockers and PAX people will hate me for helping you go faster! Just let me know when you find more info on the install.

David

[Darryl]

Spend the money on R’s and wheels. You’ll get more bang for the buck. The adjustable strut/shock is only worth tenths, the R’s, seconds.

You should have them covered in street tire so maybe its time to beat-up the folks in GS.

Randy, take your own advice and give the rest of us a break in CS.

[rdub]

Yeah DW! you're a funny man too.
I would go with "crash bolts" before shocks even and get that alignment set
But R tires are the Key
like good old DW said
from RW

[spboarder17]

I've already got plans for 15 inch lightweight wheels, V710's, and crash bolts with a proper alignment given to me by a national champ Celi driver. Maybe I'll get a chance to take a shot at RW's insane PAX times... :lol: The Koni's would just be on top of all that. Are the Koni's worth the money or not??? I've heard the stock Celi shocks start sucking >30k miles and I'm just past 30k...

[rdub]

shocks are truely down the list below
tires and crash blts,and good alignment.
I ran and finished 3rd at Nationals ( 1St on day 2)
with stock shocks and 45,000 miles on them.
If you need to get shocks ,just get Koni Single Adjustables SA's
Dual adjustables DA's are expensive and just barely better than SA's.
Shocks typically just help a bit in fast transitions and initial turn in.

[SUV-ETR]

Are the Koni's worth the money or not???

I agree with Randy that alignment and tires are WAY more important.

But once you've got those bases covered, Koni is the only way to fly. They rule. And Koni has done the shocks on just about all of the top Celicas in Solo-2.

SA (single-adjustable) are awesome. DA (double-adjustable) are indeed better, but if you aren't in contention for the National Championship, don't worry about it. And if you're *that* serious, you'll need custom valving too...

Neal

[spboarder17]

Ok, sounds like good advice to me. Any guess as to how much difference the Koni's will make on an avg. AX course? (in terms of time) - I know R's + alignment will probably be good for 1.5-2 seconds (if i can drive :D ), but I have no idea on the Koni's. If they'll give me another .5-1 second, they're probably worth it, but if they're only going to give me a couple tenths, then I can probably live without them...

[914 Dave]

For the shocks I would think in terms of tenths and plan the budget accordingly.

[SUV-ETR]

For the shocks I would think in terms of tenths and plan the budget accordingly.

<thumbs-up>

[washburn]

10-4 on the shocks. Worth tenths at the top level. I've seen too many guys beat up on the high bux shocks with stock setups. Steve Wynveen from Milwaukee (3rd at Nat's last year) runs on super trick $hock$ on his Honda S2000. He and another A class driver co-drove each other's S2000's last Sunday. The high bux shock car was only a couple tenths faster than the low buck single adj Koni car. They aren't much better than stock on an S2000. I managed to beat National Champ Mark Chiles (for one day anyway) in a bone stock Mini against his super shocks.

There are advanatges to shock setups, but it still comes down to the driving. If it were my money, and it's not, I would do what the wise men are telling you...bolts, alignment and tires. Clean up for awhile and then decide after a season. If you want to take it to another level competion wise, then think about shock setups. Have fun!

[spboarder17]

Well at least we have a consensus - I'll be getting a hold of some lightweight 15" rims from a guy after Nats this year. Next spring, I'll get some crash bolts, a new alignment, and some V710's. I keep hearing the V710's can be hard to come by - should I order a set now and store them all winter or will I be OK waiting until spring to order some? Thanks for all the advice guys!

[Darryl]

Stay as is for the rest of the season, ok spend the money and do the alignment.

Chris Harvy, national level CS driver, wrote on Miata.net: If your paxing in the top ten at national events it’s time to install adjustable shocks/struts, same thing RW and PW are saying. I came close to buying a set this year, I read what Chris wrote and will thank him for saving me 800 bucks when I see him in person in a couple weeks.

This is the order I think makes sense.
1: Driver
2: buy a competitive car
1: Driver
3: alignment
1: Driver
4: aggressive street tires or R’s
1: Driver
5: sway bar
1: Driver
6: shocks / struts
1: Driver
7: go fast sounding exhaust
8: 2’ x 4’ plywood wing!!!

Others will say DW is full of BS, prepare the car to the fullest extent of the rules and drive.

Order the 710’s in January or February making sure they are the class of 2006 tires.

[aansorge]

Good choices. On Quimby's car, I suggested shocks 'cause his were shot. For your newish car, shocks won't help a ton. The main thing they do is make transitions easier to accomplish at a given speed, and decrease corner exit wheelspin a bit if you get the re-valved shocks. Save your student loan money for the 710's!!

[spboarder17]

Darryl - good list, except for one thing... the 2’ x 4’ plywood wing obviously should be listed ahead of the driver - there's just no competing with the additional downforce that can be derived from such a construct...

[aansorge]

Yea, wait until February to order your tires. The tire companies continually update the tires even though the name stays the same, so wait for the latest. Also, the rubber will be fresher (although, bagged over winter, they would surely be fine, but I thought I remember you saying something about room being an issue . . . )

[AlexL]

This is the order I think makes sense.
1: Driver
2: buy a competitive car
1: Driver
3: alignment
1: Driver
4: aggressive street tires or R’s
1: Driver
5: sway bar
1: Driver
6: shocks / struts
1: Driver
7: go fast sounding exhaust
8: 2’ x 4’ plywood wing!!!
I hate to ruin your plans, Darryl, but the plywood wing isn't stock legal.

[AQuimby]

Alignment is more important than tires? Mabey I should get one . My car hasen't been aligned since before its smashed front end. I tried to max out the camber on both front tires, but I ended up with (I'm guessing) 1.5neg camber on the passenger side and 0.0neg camber on the drivers side. Needless to say there is a slight pull to the left.
Scott remeber when we were testing my rear shocks by jouncing the back of my car. Thats when you buy shocks.

[DCM]

Speakin' of tyres...............

WE, I said we, can save a ton of money on shipping, by ordering a semi load in February for a March delivery............. $4-5 per tire.

Now the other reccomendation I'll make is this. To have tires for mid-season, order extra in the spring.
As long as you keep them cool, dry and out of sunlight, they will be fine.........

Besides, I will save [you'all] any where from $3- 15 per tire, ordering through me. That is, Dependable Car Maintenance.
dcm@mnautox.com
763-754-7111
And you get to help!
Last spring, the cost per shipping, per tire was $3.52 [average]

[esper]

Alignment is more important than tires? Mabey I should get one . My car hasen't been aligned since before its smashed front end. I tried to max out the camber on both front tires, but I ended up with (I'm guessing) 1.5neg camber on the passenger side and 0.0neg camber on the drivers side. Needless to say there is a slight pull to the left.



SCARY.

i'd align that thing ASAP. If it's crashed, and not been realigned, then who knows what some of your settings are? I'm going to guess your tire wear is probably pretty odd too.

[AQuimby]

I will align very soon. But I want to wait until I get my rear Konis. Other wise I will just have to align it again after the installation.

[nort0188]

Apparently, the fronts involve cutting into the old struts, removing the "guts", and putting in the new inserts. The rears are supposed to be complete shocks. Any suggestions on shops or takers for the DIY road???

I don't know particulary about the Celica, but on my Camry the process wasn't cutting into the strut, but removing the gigantic threaded cap on top of the body. After some encouragement to get it off, it was a simple swap of the inserts, then put the cap back on. I don't feel like reading all of those replies, so I don't know if it was covered or not already.

[SalahK]

This is the order I think makes sense.
1: Driver
2: buy a competitive car
1: Driver
3: alignment
1: Driver
4: aggressive street tires or R’s
1: Driver
5: sway bar
1: Driver
6: shocks / struts
1: Driver
7: go fast sounding exhaust
8: 2’ x 4’ plywood wing!!!


IMO Tires are DEFINATELY more important than Alignment. A good "R" tire will knock off 2-3 seconds on a sixty second course compared to a good Street tire.

Alignment is the second-most important factor and by setting up with Max Negative Camber, Zero Front Toe and Rear Toe Out, the difference will probably be several tenths rather than a couple of seconds. But remember to revert your rear- toe settings back to zero after the event otherwise your tires will get chewed out fast.

The Celica (like my Evo) already has very stiff factory shocks so you will gain very little with Koni's.

As for Cat-back exhausts, you can even lose a few horsepower if it isn't the right kind.

My evo is set to max Negative camber, about -1.8 degrees and street-friendly Zero Toe for both Front and Back. But I realized at MOWOG 7 that my car definately needs more rotation so one of these days, if Im not feeling lazy AND someone wants to offer me a little help ;) I'm going to set the car with rear toe-out for the day.