Proposed Rule Changes for 2003

[SaturnRaycer]

The Met Council Rules Committee met on Sunday Dec 1, 2002. Attached are the proposed rule changes for 2003. MAC will address these rules and vote on them at the January meeting. Each proposed rule change must be voted on as written.

Each club's Met Council representative will bring the results back to the Met Council. The Met Council will accept or reject the changes based on the votes from the clubs. The accepted changes will be incorporated into the 2003 Rules by the end of February.


Proposed Changes to the Met Council Autocross Rules for 2003


1. 8.2.6.c. Slotted and/or drilled rotors may be used in STREET PREPARED provided they are the same size as the original equipment rotors for the particular car.

2. Add the following Section to SECTION 8.2 STREET PREPARED:
8.2.12 Cars meeting the requirements of STREET TOURING, using DOT “R” compound tires may compete in the appropriate STREET PREPARED class. Vehicles may not combine STREET TOURING and STREET PREPARED modifications

3. Return to two Modified Classes: Class A (A Mod), and Class B (B Mod). Class definitions to remain as published in the 2002 rules.


4. Eliminate Section 8.5 STOCK STREET TIRE CATEGORY.

Move Paragraph 8.5.2 (definitions of Street Tires) to Section 8.6 STREET TOURING CATEGORY and identify it as part of 8.6.

Change Section 8.6.1 to read as follows:
8.6.1 A car may compete in the STREET TOURING category if it has been modified in excess of the modifications permitted under the STOCK category, and does not exceed the following….
The remainder of the paragraph remains in force as written.

.
5. Eliminate SPECIAL INTEREST (SI) class. Novices will be annotated as such in their appropriate class and encouraged to seek mentoring from more experienced competitors. After the third event for novice competitor, the “Novice” designation will be removed.

[Dave Keillor]

The proposed elimination of the Street Tire class is kind of surprising given that most MAC people run in this class. This will raise the price of competing if you want to be at all competitive. On the other hand, if the change is adopted, it might make the decision of whether to compete next year easier (can't afford race rubber at this time.)

Dave Keillor

[Drew]

There are points for and against dropping the stock street tire classes.

There were two prinicipal motivations expressed at the rules meeting for the proposal. They both relate to reducing the number of classes. One is that it offers some simplification to the administration of the event with fewer classes to deal with. The other is that it will result in more competitors in each class, with the likely greater satisfaction that would come from placing high in a larger group. (As opposed to taking second out of, say, three competitors in a class.)

Against the proposal is that generally street tire competitors will be at a disadvantage against sticky tire competitors. Costs to be competitive will increase. There might be a perception that our events aren't as "friendly" to new people who aren't at the sticky tire stage yet.

Keep in mind that these are only proposals at this stage. Each club votes for or against each proposal. Unless a majority of Met Council clubs vote for a proposed change, the change won't happen. MAC will vote on the proposals at the January meeting. Each club's vote will be taken to the Met Council meeting February for a final vote.

Drew Baumbach

[Peter Hsu]

I for one would like to see street tires stay around...

I run a sticky tire class with street tires now...I only had one competitor with sticky tire this year....but I can't really swing sticky tires next year either.

This may seem confusing...but essentially i want to see the street tire classes remain as it is very expensive for me(and I am sure many others) to buy sticky tires and another set of rims for my car.

Peter Hsu

[SalahK]

I would like to see the street tire class remain but as a single class. We should use PAX to determine the winners just as we used to in the past.

This solves the problem of "too many classes" and simultaneously keeps the club friendly to casual autocrossers (like myself :D ) who want their cars to be competitive without having to spend money. This is especially important since we are proposing to get rid of SI.

[SaturnRaycer]

There is nothing that says you must have "sticky" tires to compete in Stock class. Keep this in mind when your club votes.

This proposal will mean that a stock class may have both street and sticky tires in it. Obviously, if your intent is to bring home trophies, you'll do what is necessary to achieve that goal. It will make some classes larger than they already are (GS & HS) and will eliminate bumping for some thinly populated classes.

[Dave Keillor]

I really have mixed emotions about the street tire class. On one hand, eliminating classes is a good thing. I'm also in favor of being more in line with SCCA rules and classes.

One the other hand, it would mean a second set of wheels, R tires, and a tire trailer for the Miata. All of which add up to money and storage space. Yes, I could continue to run on street tires, but I'm non-competitive enough as it is! Even my wife beats me lately!

Bottom line is that I'd probably continue to run on street rubber for awhile and if the gap between me and the top got too large become a less frequent competitor.

Dave Keillor

[weidnerpaul]

My vote at the banquet will be to keep street tires, not just because I don't want the hassle of add'l rims/tyres but because a large percentage of the participants at our events run in these classes----and I don't want turn off them or other newcomers.

One reason we could afford the trailer this year was because of our average turnout of 80+ participants per event, if we discourage participants we run the risk of spending more per event(insurance and rental/misc costs) than we take in. Remember too that if we do St Cloud 1-2 times this year it will probably run at a loss that will need to be subsidized by our other events.

As for a trophy meaning more if you win with more cars in your class, I have an opposite viewpoint---I think the trophys mean more to a first or second time winner, and there will be less of that for the street tyre participants. Within reason I think the more trophys the better.

Thats my two cents worth.

Paul

[Josh S #771]

Originally posted by weidnerpaul




My vote at the banquet will be to keep street tires, not just because I don't want the hassle of add'l rims/tyres but because a large percentage of the participants at our events run in these classes----and I don't want turn off them or other newcomers.

One reason we could afford the trailer this year was because of our average turnout of 80+ participants per event, if we discourage participants we run the risk of spending more per event(insurance and rental/misc costs) than we take in. Remember too that if we do St Cloud 1-2 times this year it will probably run at a loss that will need to be subsidized by our other events.

As for a trophy meaning more if you win with more cars in your class, I have an opposite viewpoint---I think the trophys mean more to a first or second time winner, and there will be less of that for the street tyre participants. Within reason I think the more trophys the better.

Thats my two cents worth.

Paul



"tyre"? Have you been driving the British beasts so much that it is starting to effect your vocab? Are you going to start busting out the "bum", "bloody", and "******" references?
Just kiddin' Paul. Great stuff. =-)

[weidnerpaul]

"tyre"? Have you been driving the British beasts so much that it is starting to effect your vocab? Are you going to start busting out the "bum", "bloody", and "******" references?

Josh,
When fufilling my Treasurer responsibilities I write cheques, my cars have Boots & Bonnets and none of my cars has a "Hood" which you would refer to as a convertible top...
Does this answer your question SIR or do I need to colour my response more directly using words of the type above in your response to my previous message???

Paul

[Josh S #771]

Originally posted by weidnerpaul



"tyre"? Have you been driving the British beasts so much that it is starting to effect your vocab? Are you going to start busting out the "bum", "bloody", and "******" references?

Josh,
When fufilling my Treasurer responsibilities I write cheques, my cars have Boots & Bonnets and none of my cars has a "Hood" which you would refer to as a convertible top...
Does this answer your question SIR or do I need to colour my response more directly using words of the type above in your response to my previous message???

Paul

That will do just fine thanx. ;-)

[aansorge]

Originally posted by Salah Khuhro


I would like to see the street tire class remain but as a single class. We should use PAX to determine the winners just as we used to in the past.

This solves the problem of "too many classes" and simultaneously keeps the club friendly to casual autocrossers (like myself :D ) who want their cars to be competitive without having to spend money. This is especially important since we are proposing to get rid of SI.

I'm with Salah on this one. My first year of autox was in '99, same as Salah. We were both in street tire pax which was a huge class. The competion was fierce with people like Bob Fogt in his newly acquired (at the time) Audi TT, Jon Lyons in his tippy Golf, Jeff Clements with his BMW M3, Andy Tuerrrene with his 318 and many others all vying for the top spot in PAX. It was awesome. The class size was often huge (20 - 30 people sometimes) but this was fine with everyone I talked to. I really debated on getting out of the class and switching to race tires even though I really wanted to try R-compound rubber. Fortunately DS was also awesome at the time, so to race tires I went.

My point is, big classes are fun and challenging, so lets go back to a street PAX class rather than dump the poor guys in the R class.

[StevenMosley]

If I understand things correctly from attending the rules meeting we only have one choice. Vote "for" or "against" getting rid of the Stock Street tire classes.

If I am able to attend the meeting I will lean towards getting rid of the "stock street tire" class for the year. I wish we would have had more people at the rules meeting to discuss this, but it is a little too late now. From looking at the results of event 6, I see we had 29 “stock street tire” competitors and 5 “stock race tire and pro” competitors. I like the idea Salah has, but I would switch it the other way around. “Stock race tire” competitors should be encouraged to run in Pro and “street tires competitors” run in stock. This will allow us to make a change this year, and not have to wait another year to make a change. Sure someone could run “race tires” in stock, but they could be made to feel like an ass for doing so.

Does anyone else feel this will work?

[chuck b]

Lots of good ideas out there.
I really enjoyed competing in street tire class when it was one large PAXed group. I think we should keep the street tire guys coming back with their own class(es). It keeps more money flowing into the club, while giving more people the opportunity to start in our sport. It's also a better way to learn the limits of the car/tire. BUT if we can't vote for this specific idea for next year, then I say we leave things be and make this change in 2004.

I'm not sure Steve's idea would take hold, though I'd personally like more competition in Pro, and there's definitely drivers ready to step up (i.e. Mosley, Bahl, Mosley, and Associates).

Another idea ( I guess for year 2004 too): how about using PAX to distibute trophies for all of stock class (with race tires). The numbers of competitors (not counting Pro) has been pathetically small: 8, 5, 6, 6, 2, 3, & 1! Or, if there is less than some magical number (12?) bumping is eliminated and we use straight PAX.
Downsides include 1) course dependency, such that FS could be at a disadvantage overall against say BS during one event, and vice versa the next. This is particularly true with our smaller sites. 2) Hmmm, can't think of another one right now.

Overall, this is a significant issue that should have been brought up on this wonderful forum before the December rules meeting [which unfortunately occured during a Thanksgiving weekend].

My right foot is getting soooo itchy.

[fitz]

Originally posted by StevenMosley



If I understand things correctly from attending the rules meeting we only have one choice. Vote "for" or "against" getting rid of the Stock Street tire classes.

If I am able to attend the meeting I will lean towards getting rid of the "stock street tire" class for the year. I wish we would have had more people at the rules meeting to discuss this, but it is a little too late now. From looking at the results of event 6, I see we had 29 “stock street tire” competitors and 5 “stock race tire and pro” competitors. I like the idea Salah has, but I would switch it the other way around. “Stock race tire” competitors should be encouraged to run in Pro and “street tires competitors” run in stock. This will allow us to make a change this year, and not have to wait another year to make a change. Sure someone could run “race tires” in stock, but they could be made to feel like an ass for doing so.

Does anyone else feel this will work?



There's another, simpler alternative. Eliminate "R" compound tires in the Stock category. It's a more sensible solution as true "street tires" clearly are far and away more popular in the stock classes than R tires, probably on the order of 6 to 1 on average.

Just my opinion valued at precisely $0.02.

I disagree with the logic though that having one Stock category open to R and Street Tires is going to drive newcomers off. If someone wants to be competitive and win, they are going to do the things they need to do to win. That includes trick alignments, all the other category legal mods, the stickiest allowed by the rules, driving schools and so on. Bigger classes though will diversify the competition so that those with less experience/preparation will have the opportunity to perform well, if not always win.

[miata#37]

Mark has an interesting proposal here. It would put those people who want to run stickies either in the pro-pax class or street-prepared. Putting R-compound tires on a car really is a significant modification for autox. A good arguement could be made for moving them into street prepared as only the most extreme enthusiest would use them as an everyday street tire. His idea also reflects the demographics of the club. The down side is that it would be divergent from what the SCCA does.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to attend the meeting where different proposals were to be debated. (Cars down for repairs, unexpected deer damage, etc) My humble opinion on getting rid of the ST classes is that it shouldn't be done as the proposal is now written because there needs to be an alternative for those who want to be competetive in a stock car on street tires.

[DCM]

Personally I didn't get any 'sticky' tires for the first 4-5 years of autoxin'
When I finally did, I knew I could never go back.
That'swhen I started to really gain confidence and got close to being competitive.
But like has been said over and over, concentrate on tightening up ' the loose nut behind the wheel '
DCM

[rdub]

this is a good discussion and its been visited many times before.
you can't make the guy "just in off the street"competetive by a rule or a class.
the guy or gal who comes to an autox to run, doesn't leave because they don't win right-a-way,they leave because people aren't friendly or helpful,not because their tires are the "wrong ones".they are there to have fun.fun is driving your car fast and not getting a ticket.If they love autox ing they will decide how serious they want to become.
also remember,"stock" is never stock.
I could come into the "stock street tire" class with my shaved BFG KDs ,shocks,wacky alignment,exhaust,K&N,REDLINE fluid,lapbelted MAZHONDAYODASAN and the difference between that "off the street guy" and me would be just as great as with R compound tires.
So in the end, less classes are better. do it, THEY WILL STILL COME

[phile]

I'm not identifying who wrote this, in an effort to emphasize the fact that I am about to attack the IDEA, not the person who wrote it.

========
“Stock race tire” competitors should be encouraged to run in Pro and “street tires competitors” run in stock. This will allow us to make a change this year, and not have to wait another year to make a change. Sure someone could run “race tires” in stock, but they could be made to feel like an ass for doing so.
========

This is a very bad idea. We need to have a set of rules. Any concept that any person should be castigated for the offense of following the actual printed rules is anathema to sportsmanship.

We need to have actual written rules, not unwritten quasi-rules.

Phil Ethier

[rdub]

hey phile ,Its randy williams,I love being identified.
I'm just pointing out the fact that there is no great equalizer in racing.
only one person gets to win a class and the rest have fun.
once someone puts Azenis or BFG KDS on in "street tire " class it will be the same as R compound classes.Less classes are easier on timing and scoring
Oh ,hey phile, whats with all the fancy words,like ass!

[73GT]

Hey Randy thanks for the input. I still remember the speech that you gave at the barn years ago and almost everthing you said has came true about the street tire classes.
I also believe that if we do away with the street tire class "they will still come". What gets the people to come is the advertising from the different clubs and people that have have a good time with the friendly people in the sport. Street tire stock is not a nationally reconized class by SCCA . It was a idea by the SCCA to get "new blood"and to have it as a optional regional class. Somebody brought up having all the street tire stock cars in one class and have them PAX. Back when it was done that way the PAX was done manually between each run by the volunteers in the timing bus.(very time consuming it did two things 1. slowed down the day and 2. Burned out the people.) Back then factory performance cars weren't as abundant as they are now actually we are in a revolution not unlike the muscle car era. Close tight competition can be had at any level remember it's more the driver than the car we've seen so many wildly modified cars that are slower than stock class cars. Randy talk about fancy words how can I get a "MAZHONDAODASAN" for my "old school antiquated german GM car!!!!"

Lee Frisvold

[StevenMosley]

Thanks Phil for not mentioning my name. :)

I can understand why you don't like the idea, but I would like
to see something done sooner rather then later and I agree
with Randy that this is about fun not trophy's. Since reducing
the number of classes allows us to have a more stream lined
process that will give us the opportunity to possibly have short
days or more runs. I am for it.

As for the Street tire debate I had the opporunity to run 3 completely
different types of tires last year.
-Real Street Tires (stock tires that came on my Beetle)
-Street Race Tires (Falken Azenis on my GTI)
-R- compund tires (Kuhmo and on the GSR)
The Falkens and Kuhmo's are almost equal. The Kuhmo's have
a little bit of an advantage when they are freshly scuffed, but they
quickly lose thier edge, and a set of bad street tires like I have
on the Beetle are not going to stand much of a chance against
anything with Falkens or KD's. That of course is if the nut behind
the wheel is of equal skills.

Oh well, at least it has been fun chatting about this. Hopefully
I can make it to the meeting.

[washburn]

Hmmmmm...seems we've been here before. Many-o-great comments. Randy, being the wise crustly old autocrosser he is, sums up the whole deal well I think. I might not agree with this in other regions, but I think this would be right for the Met Council. I don't think we will lose an inordinate amount of people, but you will get people asking for the ST classes over time. I predict that they will return in the future, but in another format. (Lee, programs are out there right now that calculate the PAX positions on the fly and with no intervention needed by T and S people.) Milwaukee has a two ST classes: Front wheel Drive and Rear Wheel Drive.

I agree with Phil's comments. Rules do not work like that...you can't make someone feel like an ass for being within the rules. Just write a good rule. Eliminating R tires in Stock is also not the best idea. We need to at least be semi-compliant with SCCA rules for those who do want to advance to higher levels of competition. MWCSSC does this and they are basically an island on to themselves.

As to SI elimination: I ask why? Is it that hard to track one class that's not even being published into the final results? Give people the crutch they need to try out the sport without the crushing pressure of regular classes. Some folks will simply not try it otherwise. I agree with the ST elimination, but ask that this be saved. It has a high return with little work. Eliminating ST classes will open us up to potentially lower recruiting numbers, so SI becomes all that much more important IMO.

Don't know what the thing about Mod is all about. but it's fine with me. I thought there was only two Mod classes now. (At least my Cm car was classes in BM for Met Council.)

Anyway, can't make the meeting myself (probably) so that's my vote if it means anything. I will say again though that the site issue is our largest advisary, and no matter what happens with classing, we need sites to survive!

[phile]

Originally posted by rdub


hey phile ,Its randy williams,I love being identified.
I'm just pointing out the fact that there is no great equalizer in racing.
only one person gets to win a class and the rest have fun.
once someone puts Azenis or BFG KDS on in "street tire " class it will be the same as R compound classes.Less classes are easier on timing and scoring
Oh ,hey phile, whats with all the fancy words,like ass!

Randy, I didn't quote you, I quoted Steve. The fancy words, like "ass" were his. I didn't mention his name because I wanted to emphasize that I was not picking on him personally, but I did want to attack the idea that people ought to be treated poorly for the crime of following the written rules. Steve has since brought the subject up again, so no harm, no foul.

A couple of years ago, folks persuaded me that I ought to run the Lotus in ASP even though it has several items missing (headliner, carpet, rear trunk insert) which would make it "protest bait" in Street Prepared. I did do that for a season, but I always tried to make it clear that I knew I was not legal in the letter of the rules and that I would not think the less of anyone that wanted me out of the class. Any protest against me would be upheld unopposed and I would go quietly. Nobody ever complained, and I hope it was not because they did not want to seen as a wienie. Any complaint would have been legit.

Although it is a bit odd for me to run AP in a car that is not (and will not be) fully-developed for even Street Prepared, the fact remains that some square pegs won't fit in round holes, so I expect to continue to be out-prepared by others in Prepared.

The point is that there is usually a choice to be made:
Do you want to be competitive in whatever car and configuration it takes?
Or
Do you want to drive the car you want to in the configuration you want?

In some magic instances, often at considerable expense, you can have both. But not often. There are usually compromises to make. One must look hard at oneself to see which path is more likely to yield a satisfying autocross experience. We will never have enough classes to eliminate the necessity of this choice for most people.

I have obviously chosen to drive the car I have in the configuration I have. I'm not planning on cutting the wheelwells for big wheels and tires because somebody (not me) might actually want to restore this old car some day. I don't want to pay for carpet and headliner and I actually prefer not to have them, in a masochistic/minimalist sort of way. It ain't fast, especially in Prepared Category, but it is a whole lot of fun. That's my choice. It would be silly, and damned egocentric, for me to try to get Met Council to build a class around it.

Whatever class you decide to make your home, don't call anyone names if they choose to prepare to the written limits of that class.

Phil Ethier
pethier@isd.net

[Drew]

Originally posted by washburn

As to SI elimination: I ask why? Is it that hard to track one class that's not even being published into the final results? Give people the crutch they need to try out the sport without the crushing pressure of regular classes. Some folks will simply not try it otherwise. I agree with the ST elimination, but ask that this be saved. It has a high return with little work. Eliminating ST classes will open us up to potentially lower recruiting numbers, so SI becomes all that much more important IMO.


Pat, yours are some the few comments regarding the SI elimination proposal. I, like most of us, give a lot of weight to the views of people like yourself, Randy and Lee.

Here are some thoughts I had on SI and why elimination is worth considering. I'll start by admitting that I may not have a fully rounded viewpoint because I've never run in SI. I never had anything against SI, per se (at least until I recently gave it some thought). But I've also always felt that entering and competing in your car's class is part of participating in autocross - even in one's very first event. If you're a novice at a local autocross event, I don't really see where there's any more pressure in a designated class than there is in SI. If one is brave enough to go out and drive the course in front of a bunch of experienced strangers, then one will probably not be intimidated by having their times listed with everyone else's. In my first season of autocross, my times were generally between 90th and last overall, out of 100 entries. And it didn't seem to bother me that I was last in my class. After all, I was new. It made me want to do better rather than quit. Now, on good days, I have some times close to the middle of the pack overall, and I frequently have a respectable position in my class. Still not real fast, but more personally satisfying. So, first I'd say I don't see a great need for SI. I not saying it's worthless - just that I don't think there's a significant need for it.

Second, in my experience in the last couple of years in Tech, I've observed that sometimes half or more of the people in SI seem to wind up there by default rather than by choice. They are generally new people who want to try out autocrossing, but who show up without a clue as to what class their car would fall into. For whatever reason, they couldn't seem to determine their car's class. Didn't know where to look for info. Expected someone to assign them to a class at the event. Whatever. So then in Tech, it was easier to simply suggest they run in SI than to actually take the time to determine a class for them. So, in regard to this aspect of SI, I don't really think that's the way it should be. Maybe this indicates we need to provide more direction on how to determine a car's class. Maybe our event procedures need another overhaul. But the bottom line is that SI isn't serving its intended purpose in these situations.

Finally, for the same reason that elimination of street tire classes has the potential to add some simplicity to the operation of our events, not having SI will also help in registration and timing & scoring.

Summary: IMO, SI is not worthless; but there also is not a compelling need for either new or experienced participants to have this class as an option. Our events are very friendly. I doubt that many novices also need the extra security of the SI class. SI shouldn't be a dumping ground for situations where no one wants to bother to actually determine a car's class. And not having SI would be another small step at simplification, which should theoretically benefit the operation of our events.

Just my thoughts.

Drew Baumbach

[StevenMosley]

If I understand how the rules work we can't change the items that
have already been proposed. So if changes are to be made we
only have the options to eliminate Stock Street Tires and SI.
(Is this true?)

Eliminating “Street Tire Stock” will have the most benefit to the club
since it will reduce the largest number of classes. It will not make
everyone happy, but nothing will. Having started my autoxing
hobby at Corvette events, I have never cared for classes since usually
all tin cars have been grouped together and I usually have more fun at
their events because we get more runs and have more competition
since all tin cars are grouped together.

As for eliminating SI, by doing so we will force newbie’s to run with
a group of experienced autoxers. This will help the events run smoother
by not having a large number of newbie’s working the course at once and
it will give them a better opportunity to integrate with existing members.

In closure I would like to point out that most of us probably gage ourselves
against other drivers that don’t even run in our classes. We do this because
we are looking for a ways to measure our performance comparatively and
we all know that autoxing is mostly about the driver and not the car.

[Dave Keillor]

Both Drew and Steve make excellent points on the case for eliminating the SI class. I hadn't thought about Steve's point about distributing the newbie course workers throughout the run groups. I've noticed a definite drop-off in competency of the course workers when the group containing SI is working.

For the perspective from someone who is not much beyond the newbie stage, let me provide some perspective on SI. From day one, neither my wife or I considered running in SI for several reasons. First, we wanted to see how we did against our "peers" (cars and people in our class). Second, your driving skill is on display for everyone to see. I was painfully aware that whatever fool mistakes I made would be there for everyone to see, so what difference did it make whether my time was published. Third, since my times were being displayed on the timing board, my stupid mistakes and poor times could be immediately correlated by all who cared to watch. Frankly, I have a hard time figuring out how SI reduces the pressure very much -- if at all.

On the topic of the Street Tire class, I'm about 60/40 in favor of keeping the class. The main reason is cost. I do need new tires because the Dunlops SP8000s have lived up to their reputation and become hard as rocks. My plan was to get something dedicated to autocross, but which I could use for the drive from/to Rochester (e.g. Azenis). I don't want to drive that far on Kumhos in the rain! Of course I could still follow that plan without the Street Tire class, but I'd probably go all the way to Kumhos because that's just the way I am. Then would come a tire trailer, etc.

Of course, with stickier tires, my wife would probably have an even bigger advantage, so maybe I should just stay with the rock-hard Dunlops to reduce my losing margin. :sarc

Dave Keillor

[washburn]

Dave...I lost your address (don't ask how!) Please send me a private note.

washburn@dwave.net

Thanks!

[SalahK]

Originally posted by Dave Keillor

From day one, neither my wife or I considered running in SI for several reasons. First, we wanted to see how we did against our "peers" (cars and people in our class).
:sarc

Dave Keillor


To that, I would like to add...

The best way to gauge your performance is to compare yourself to the driver with the best PAX score. Assuming that your car has been optimised within the rules allowed in your class, PAX gives you a good idea of how much you can drop your times. For more information on PAX check out this excellent link.

http://www.miataracing.net/pax_index.asp

In MOWOG 7 for example, Chuck Bower has the fastest PAX'ed time of 25.472. This implies that Chuck in a Miata running race tires should get a raw time of 31.37 seconds. On Tarmac, running street tires will probably increase that time to somwhere in the low 32s.

See Randy, if you had been present at MOWOG 7, I would probably have had to use your PAX score in my example ;)

[SaturnRaycer]

Steve, your take on changing changes is correct. When the Met Council rules meeting begins, anyone from any club may propose a change, The proposed changes are voted on by the people at that meeting. It takes a simple majority for a proposal to pass. Once the proposed changes pass that meeting, they go to the Council to be taken back to the individual clubs. At that point, each club votes either for or against each proposed rule change. Those results go back to the Met Council, via the club's representative. The council tallies up the club's votes, and passage of each change is by simple majority. The council publishes the results and the rule book is amended accordingly.

[chuck b]

No one in the know is answering Steve's question regarding tweaking the proposed rule changes. Someone please stepup! Phil, you're usually helpful with this stuff.

Regarding SI, I think we should eliminate the group but get ready to assign at least one person at registration to help class the new people's cars. Registration could not currently handle this additional task. Many come with cars that have just enough mods to bump them from stock, and where they go from there is not clear to me (though I'd like to learn and get out from under my "Stock" rock).

I do recall my first ever autocross, which was in SI. I would have participated even if I had to compete in a regular class. As long as we have an open door and an overall friendly disposition, I believe most will still have the courage and interest to start participating.

Oh, Mr. Kuhro- I might have given Randy a run for his money if he had shown up- I wish he had, just like I wish you'd be there with the Type R on R compound. That was most likely my best single run in my life! Sometimes, preparation, luck, and course design all align themselves for a fleeting moment. (And to think that there's a few more seconds out there that top drivers eliminate.)

[chuck b]

Thanks for your answer to Steve's question Saturn Racer, you snuck that in while I was typing away.

[rdub]

thanks for the "props" salah and chuck
there will be time next year for all of us to go at it again!
now its time for GT3 and Prokart!

[washburn]

Find a parking lot I can get out of first gear in and maybe I can play with you guys too!

[rdub]

I'd still like a turn behind the wheel of the swift sometime
maybe I'll come down your way this year to run on a bigger lot
have a good xmas
I'm heading to Florida

[aansorge]

A message for Salah and his quote that Randy probably would have out PAXed chuck at Mowag 7: Here is some data :

We'll use you Salah as our control :

Your time in Mowag 1 in your wife's WRX: 37.582
Randy William's time in his sweet 318: 36.510
difference in time 1.072 seconds.

Your time in Mowag 7 in the same WRX: 34.216
Chuck's time in his three-legged SER: 32.449
difference in time 1.767

PAX for GS and STS are basically identical, so this plays no real factor. Chuck beat you by a greater margin on a shorter course. I think this would have been Chuck's race even had RW been there. Obviously the variables here being omited are huge, but what else can you do.

[rdub]

OK, I wasn't going to say anything, but I can't help myself,I compare statistics for my job
compare mowog 1 to mowog7
different track layout
different outside temps.
not even the involved driver at mowog 7
and the fact that I won the PAX index at all the events I was at!
explain again how your comparison is valid?
I see a challenge for next year a-brewin!

[SalahK]

:hohoK, i too was going to say something a couple of days back but i was too busy painting my bedroom Najavo Red to respond to Adam's fuzzy math. Sorry guys but it is my turn to do the math...and do the math I will.

I have only three head to head data points to work with, and as Adam mentioned, GS and STS PAX is virtually identical so i will disregard it for the sake of simplicity.

Mowog 1:
Randy = 36.510
Chuck = 37.906
Diff (Chuck/Randy ) = 0.963

Mowog 3:
Randy = 32.479
Chuck = 34.613
Diff (Chuck/Randy ) = 0.938

Mowog 6:
Randy = 43.456
Chuck = 44.108
Diff (Chuck/Randy ) = 0.985

Average diff = 0.962

Having made this calculation, I must point our that the PAX index was designed using events run on concrete. Since the performance level between race and street rubber is somewhat diminished on asphalt, the PAX is going to artificially favor all street tire classes. In reality, the difference between the Randy/318 combo and the Chuck/SER combo is probably less than the 0.962 diff suggests. However it is HIGHLY unlikely that the concrete/asphalt issue is large enough to completely negate the diff.

All in all, Randy outpaxed chuck, adam, pat, myself and any other driver who normally paxes near the top.

Ok Randy, now that "I" have pronounced you MAC 2002 driver of the year, i must warn you...next year i will be replacing my two-year-old, 7000 mile! 205/50 Toyos with brand new 225/45 Kuhmos or Hoosiers...so watch out!

[rdub]

sounds good salah,
I wasn't trying to "toot" my own horn, just having fun with facts and figures,
and I know you like to do that too!
so the "challenge" will be on
I also have another fun car to challenge with,
an MP3.
later later

[chuck b]

yikes, the type R on R scares the be jeebers out of me, especially with Salah behind the wheel.
overall, randy kicked my butt and every other wannabe. while i may have given him a good scare if he would've been at VII, he probably would have recognized he'd need to concentrate a little instead of casually crank out a "regular" awesome time. I have a feeling that as good as he is, it's easy to lose a little of the edge when the competition is so far away!
BTW, at MOWOG I, Adam A. and I duked it out on 3 race tires and one rear street tire- so this can't count for a comparison. After that experience, we highly recommend against this strategy, even if you've got a corded tire. Just go with street tires all the way around, or maybe two and two.
hey, what's this got to do about rules anyway! Hmmmmm, let's make a rule that the PAX champion is handicapped with ________[fill in the blank.]
My suggestion- the ol' banana in the tailpipe trick.

[washburn]

Yeah, and Adam and I proved resoundingly that flat spotted and worn our Kumho's are not a great set up either! Adam drove well enough that he would have PAX'ed on top in LaCrosse had I not "did in" his tires. (And that is on a course where a very long straight placed his car at a severe dis-advantage from the start.)

Anyway, I'm not sure I entirely agree that asphalt alone lessens the R/ST gap. I've seen street tires perform significantly better on good concrete just the same as R tires. My personal take is that the course size and design play a larger part in the apparent "gap". We are prety limited by the size available. Very low speeds and tight elements tend to play into the hands of street tires slightly. (Of course, this type of course plays into the hands of experienced, patient drivers too!) A comment was made to me after Randy and I placed 1,2 on index with his car that the ST classes PAX is really soft. I do not for a moment beleive that this leads to Randy's success. Randy is responsible for Randy's performance. A properly prepared and driven R tired car can knock on the door just as easily as Randy's BFG shod Beeemer.

That's why I really want in on this battle! This is shaping up to be the biggest duke out in years. If I can ease into a ride every now and then, I will throw down my glove. (Doesn't make any sense to bring my Swift to this fight....you guys will eat me alive. This is where asphalt and concrete and course design make a huge difference.) Anyway, as we get closer to Spring, I will be slutting around for rides, so better get those tires on order and get that alignment done!

[StevenMosley]

Pat,

I saw you at La Crosse. I don't think I would let you drive my
car unless it has ABS. You flat spotted those tires bad. :)
And I have to agree that was a fast event. I would have loved
to see Mr. Boos or Mr. Morton on that baby. And who was that
guy in the Type-R that took FTD running in CSP with just a cone
filter as a mod. He was smoking. No idea who he was. Anyone else
know?

Adam, Have you decided on a car yet? If you don't get one
by spring let me know and maybe we can co-drive the Beetle and
we can compare notes.

[washburn]

Not one of my finer moments! You get used to being able to brake with weights transferred in a Mod car, and it's awful hard to re-adapt, especially when your driving a car that hikes as much weight as that Honda. (Of course, fresher tires would have made the situation less touchy.) ;) ;)

I don't know who the Type R driver was. He was pretty darn good, but I think course dependency came into play a bit. Giving someone with a power to weight advantage two front straights worth of acceleration tends to lean a little in their favor. I think you guys were every bit as quick as him, but you got toasted coming down the front straights. (As did we) Pretty quick guy anyway. Only 4 more months until Spring!

[StevenMosley]

Originally posted by washburn


Not one of my finer moments! You get used to being able to brake with weights transferred in a Mod car, and it's awful hard to re-adapt, especially when your driving a car that hikes as much weight as that Honda. (Of course, fresher tires would have made the situation less touchy.) ;) ;)

I don't know who the Type R driver was. He was pretty darn good, but I think course dependency came into play a bit. Giving someone with a power to weight advantage two front straights worth of acceleration tends to lean a little in their favor. I think you guys were every bit as quick as him, but you got toasted coming down the front straights. (As did we) Pretty quick guy anyway. Only 4 more months until Spring!

We all have our moments. :) And who is the idiot that decided to put drum brakes on the back of the early Gen2 CRX's?

My last two events were so much fun last year that I'm so pumped for next spring. Hopefully that site under the bridge in St. Paul works out. It is a nice chunk of pavement and will give us a new place to play.

[Dennis G.]

As for the drum brakes....he's a DRAG racer....! Drums can be adjusted for ZERO drag for a few thousands free off of your ET. Dennis G.









99 BMW 750i
'01 911 turbo
87 Benneton F1

[rdub]

dennis, you got one cool garage full of plush rides
look at my groovy rides though




73 pinzgauer
58 messerschmitt (race preped with Azenis)
56 isetta300
matador "the machine"

[aansorge]

Originally posted by StevenMosley

Adam, Have you decided on a car yet? If you don't get one
by spring let me know and maybe we can co-drive the Beetle and
we can compare notes.


I wouldn't mind co-driving your Beetle. I've got one of those too you know. Mine, unfortunately, is the normally aspirated model also known as the 2.slow model. Beetles handle suprisingly well as long as you don't over do it and get into major understeer. Their transitional response is their best feature. For next year, I am going to run a 93 Protege at the local events in HS or HST and hopefully Salah's Type R at nationals.

adam

[Dennis G.]

Hey rdub! Ya, the 750 is my winter beater and I can't find gearbox parts for the Benneton, so its for show. I cant afford insurance for the 911....but it sure looks good in the garage!

[StevenMosley]

Adam,

You mentioned that at the last event. I had so much fun running the Beetle at the last event that I have decided to consolidate and sell my ’91 GTI. The hardest thing about running the Beetle is getting used to sitting up so high and driving on all-season street rubber. If you get into the corner to hot you better be prepared to plow, because the car has no idea what rotation is. Oh well. It will be fun to play with next year.

Steven

[Chin]

All of you just wait.... the STi is gonna get you all! How about 300hp and 300ftlb, stock!
Muhahahaha

[914 Dave]

Getting slightly back on topic, about the proposed rule changes, how soon do we know what will be what for next year? It sounds like we vote at the upcoming meeting, then the board takes the vote to the member clubs, they cast a vote, then its law...(?) Is that right, and if so, how long does all this take? I'd like to run the 914 as a street tire car next season, (Falkens)and spend $$$ developing the driver, not buying sticky skins and additional wheels. If no street tire class exists in 2003, I guess its "way to go, Kuhmo" Any experience on the victoracer V700 vs the ecsta V700 vs the Falken?


David Parsons
1973 914 2.0
Speed changes you...

[StevenMosley]

There is not much a difference between Kuhmo V700's and Falkens
form my experience. I ran them both last year and I was really
impressed with the Falkens. They really stick like crazy.

Steven

[aansorge]

Originally posted by StevenMosley


There is not much a difference between Kuhmo V700's and Falkens
form my experience. I ran them both last year and I was really
impressed with the Falkens. They really stick like crazy.

Steven

Yea they seem to stick well in the corners but when it comes time to brake, they aren't even close.

Adam A.

[chuck b]

I'd like to see a g analysis to verify what you're experiencing Adam. If you're going by the comparison between the Type R on Falkens, and the CRX Si and SE-R on Kumho's I think you could be fooled by the Type R's ridiculously good handling. This is all speculation, since I have no concrete evidence. I think braking ability is not that different car to car given differences in weight and tire size (except Porshe for some reason) and so a difference in the tire is very evident.
I volunteer to offer my g analyzer to someone willing to do a Falken to R compound tire swap during an event. Salah? Other? Or if someone has Falkens that will fit the SE-R I'll be a guinea pig. [wow, did i spell guinea correctly?!]

out

[StevenMosley]

We could do it with any car that has a 4x100 bolt pattern.
I have Kuhmo V700's on Kosei K1's and Falkens on
some heavier MB Motoring wheels that are the same
size and offset. The SER would be a good canidate, but
the fender lips would have to be rolled on back to fit the
bigger rims.

[SalahK]

Repost - KD beats Azenis (GRM - 11/02)
And Both street tires get clobbered by the race tires:

Here is a summary:

Fastlap Type Tread %

39.17 Race 03/32 100.00 Hoosier
39.29 Race 03/32 099.69 Kuhmo Victoracer
39.30 Race 03/32 099.67 Kuhmo ECSTA
39.47 Race 04/32 099.24 Toyo RA-1

41.01 Street 09/32 100.00 BFG KD
41.40 Street 08/32 099.06 Falcon Azenis

Notes:
All tires were run under similar conditions on a STS-ready Neon ACR by two national level autocrossers.
The Street tires would have done better if shaved, but I doubt they would come anywhere near the race rubber.
According to Tirerack, the Michelin MXX3(99.49) and the Pirelli P-Zero Assimetrico(98.92) come within striking distance of the mighty KD. This means that the Azenis is not the best, but it is in the top 3 or 4 street tires out there.