Possible Rule changes

[73GT]

The annual rules meeting is coming up. I'm posting this to see if anybody has a change they would like to see happen.

I'd like to have cross drilled/slotted rotors be allowed in Street prepared and not automatically bump the car into prepared class unless they upgraded the size of the brakes with non-stock components.


Lee Frisvold
73GT

[StevenMosley]

When is the rule meeting?

As for a rule changes I would like to see. I would like to see
us adopt the SCCA classing. That way we don't have to waste
time trying to change or modify rules and we can focus on running
events and improving the autox experience.

[washburn]

For the most part, we do. (With allowances.)

I support the idea of using the SCCA Solo 2 rule book and classing as the entire basis, with local allowances listed. In other words, all the rules are in the SCCA book, but the differences from that book are listed in our rule book. This way you can easily differentiate between the rule sets. (If you want to remain SCCA compliant, simply ignore the local allowances in our book. Easy.)

Lee's idea of slotted rotors for instance. I personally think we should allow them locally. They really don't help a lot (in fact they may hurt) and it allows more people access to SP classes because that's what they want to run on the street. If they are serious competitors, they will voluntarily comply with the SCCA book so they can travel to other events. This allowance would be listed as an exception in our book. (My rules for C Modified class work this way...I must comply with a seperate rule book, the SCCA GCR road racing book, with exceptions as listed in the Solo 2 book.) It works.

Please post the dates we need to know for these meeting...I have not seen a Right Line in quite some time and have no idea when they are. Thanks!!

[StevenMosley]

I understand where Lee is coming from, but the real issue becomes where do we stop.

I could say that I want my Beetle to be able to run with a chip. Since the chip adds 50+hp and would make it more comparble to a Audi TT (which is in the same class) and I drive it everday so I should be able to run it in DSP or STS. Or lets say I went out and bought a BMW 325is and want to run it in STS, but the car has LSD and is not eligible for the class. Would it be fair to anyone else if I worked to get the rules ammended to allow it to be in that class?

I just think it would be a lot easier and less political to go by the SCCA bible. In the end I don't think you are going to have any more fun autoxing if you have to run in a different class. Isn't fun what this is all about?

[73GT]

Steve don't get excited. Slotted/drilled rotor do NOT add any performance advantage
on a Autocross car unlike your examples. The only possible advantage for slotted /drilled rotors is to get lower unsprung weight but thats a stretch.
We do use the class structure that SCCA uses but some of there class rules are behind
the times and are not good for every club or well thought out for that matter.


Lee Frisvold
73GT

[Josh S #771]

I also agree that we should adapt to the SCCA bible. There are two classing rules that SCCA ammends to and we don't.

1. Last year we added the STS class from the SCCA classing. I think this class is great but as I read the rules I found out it doesn't allow turbo-charged cars. That is why SCCA has a turbo allowed class called STX which I think we should add. There are also a lot of new turbo charged cars that could be added to this class in modified form. The new Mazda Speed Protege, Neon SRT-4 and VW 1.8T cars are a few. I think this class would allow for some good competition among turbo-charged in the same fassion as the STS class with NA cars.

2. Street Mod and Prepared are basically the same thing. A lot of highly modified cars have a choice of being in either of these classes. Why give them a choice? It lessens competition. The SCCA doesn't allow sticky tires in Street Mod and that is what differentiates the two there. Just a thought.

I know we do this for fun. To me competition is fun! :D

[gkullman]

It wasn't a good year for me to compete, to much travel, new house. All I got in were three events and a great training class in the spring! Now for next year I would like to run as much of the season as I can. With supercharging now a part of the equation I need to know if we are going to continue sticky tires in the SM class. This was a last minute change last year for the 2002 season. I don't care which way it goes, just would like to know before I go to the tire store. If it's sticky, I'll buy sticky, otherwise I'll go back to the tire debate and pick up very competitive "street" tires.

Thanks

[Chris Bienert]

Two points:
1) The VW Golf/Jetta with the 1.8T is specifically listed in the SCCA rulebook as being legal for STS.
2) R compound tires are legal in SM according to the SCCA rule book.

[SalahK]

Originally posted by gkullman

I need to know if we are going to continue sticky tires in the SM class. This was a last minute change last year for the 2002 season. I don't care which way it goes, just would like to know before I go to the tire store. If it's sticky, I'll buy sticky, otherwise I'll go back to the tire debate and pick up very competitive "street" tires.

Thanks

I think we might be confusing the tire issue. I believe the SCCA rules seperate tires into 3 catagories.

1. Street tires:
Falcon Azenis, etc.
Used by STS, STX

2. DOT R-Compound tires
Kuhmo V700 victoracer, etc.
Used by Stock, Street Prepared, SM, SM2

3. NON-DOT Race tires
Goodyear Slick, etc.
Used by Prepared, Modified

[Josh S #771]

Originally posted by Chris Bienert


Two points:
1) The VW Golf/Jetta with the 1.8T is specifically listed in the SCCA rulebook as being legal for STS.
2) R compound tires are legal in SM according to the SCCA rule book.


Vehicles for this category include all coupes/sedans with a minimum of four seats, four seat belts; that are not sports car based, with a maximum engine displacement of 3.1 liters, normally aspirated and certain small displacement turbocharged sedans. No limited slip differentials are permitted except for factory standard viscous coupler type units.

I grabbed this from the SCCA book. The part about small displacement turbocharged sedans was added since I read about it before the beginning of last season.

[washburn]

Originally posted by StevenMosley


I understand where Lee is coming from, but the real issue becomes where do we stop.

I could say that I want my Beetle to be able to run with a chip. Since the chip adds 50+hp and would make it more comparble to a Audi TT (which is in the same class) and I drive it everday so I should be able to run it in DSP or STS. Or lets say I went out and bought a BMW 325is and want to run it in STS, but the car has LSD and is not eligible for the class. Would it be fair to anyone else if I worked to get the rules ammended to allow it to be in that class?


Well, I do understand the slippery slope philosophy. This has much more impact when considering a National audience. We are a local club. The examples you gave above are significant performance enhancers. Slotted rotors are not, so while I acknowledge your point about where do we stop, I think most reasonable people can agree that this mod is not going to affect the results. It will allow a few people to run ST where they might otherwise be looking at a dismal classing in Mod. Will Steve get beat because someone has slotted rotors? I think not.

I think the rules committee would need to show great care in what is allowed. It would need to serve the overall goals of the club while not giving an unfair advatage to those who need to stay SCCA legal. Local rules are great also because they can be changed or eliminated just as easily as they were created. Got a bunch of guys show up in Dune Buggy's? Make a Buggy class and give them some rules. This happened in Madison years ago when I ran down there. Buggy guys left...rules got thrown out a year later. No biggy, and it was great fun having them there.

The serious SCCA competitor is going to stay Nationally legal, will run bigger more competitive events, and is probably going to do pretty well locally no matter what allowances are given to the other cars. To be honest, I don't really care how I do at local events...it's National ones that I care about, so I'm cool with whatever reasonable allowance you want to make for local cars. As long as it's reasonable and it serves the club. Just my 4 cents.

Pat

[StevenMosley]

Originally posted by washburn


Well, I do understand the slippery slope philosophy. This has much more impact when considering a National audience. We are a local club. The examples you gave above are significant performance enhancers. Slotted rotors are not, so while I acknowledge your point about where do we stop, I think most reasonable people can agree that this mod is not going to affect the results. It will allow a few people to run ST where they might otherwise be looking at a dismal classing in Mod. Will Steve get beat because someone has slotted rotors? I think not.

Pat

Pat,

I'm not even talking about slotted rotors. I’m not talking about
winning or losing.

It is about drawing the line. It has to be drawn somewhere and
everyone has an opinion. Lets keep all of this from becoming a
drag and just use the good rules that are already set by the SCCA.
The rewards of custom rules will never outweigh the headaches, so
let’s keep it simple. I’m not sure if I can handle another meeting
where the rules become the main event. I know there are many
other issues we can spend our valuable time on.

Personally if Lee was in DSP and had slotted rotors I wouldn’t care.
Honestly before this post I had no idea that slotted rotors would put
him in prepared. I’m sure the people in his street prepared class
would be kind of relieved if he was in prepared and the people in
his prepared class would be VERY VERY afraid.

Anyways whatever happens happens and this Southern California
weather is making my autox fever come about 3 months to early.

Steven

[SaturnRaycer]

The Met Council Rules Meeting is Sunday Dec 1, 2002 12:00 Noon. Mark Fitzpatrick is hosting the meeting again at his house. Contact either Dwight or me for his address and directions.

Representatives from each of the Met Council clubs will be there to decide on Met Council
rules. These apply to all member clubs and give some universality to the rules. Once the rules are proposed and voted on by the rules committee, they go back to the respective clubs for ratification. This is usually completed by February or March at the latest.

[gkullman]

Thanks for all the discussion on the tires. I will not buy until late winter just in case local rules change from SCCA.

Hope the old Passat with supercharger can make a mark in SM with those Kuhmo V700's.

[fitz]

Originally posted by SaturnRaycer


The Met Council Rules Meeting is Sunday Dec 1, 2002 12:00 Noon. Mark Fitzpatrick is hosting the meeting again at his house. Contact either Dwight or me for his address and directions.



It is?

Why didn't someone tell me?

You guys can come if you really want but I'm gonna be about 350 miles away.

[phile]

Originally posted by fitz



Originally posted by SaturnRaycer


The Met Council Rules Meeting is Sunday Dec 1, 2002 12:00 Noon. Mark Fitzpatrick is hosting the meeting again at his house. Contact either Dwight or me for his address and directions.



It is?

Why didn't someone tell me?

You guys can come if you really want but I'm gonna be about 350 miles away.

see dwight's statement:
========================
bdr METROPOLITAN COUNCIL RULES MEETING was posted on: 11-23-02 09:07:40

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BIG CHANGE! THE MET-COUNCIL RULES MEETING IS NOT GOING TO BE AT MARK FITZPATRICK'S HOUSE ON SUNDAY DECEMBER 1!

INSTEAD MY WIFE BOBBI HAS GRACIOUSLY ALLOWED US TO HAVE HERE AT THE BIG HOUSE UP NORT'

SO, WE WILL PLAN TO HAVE IT AT; 554 134th Lane N.E. Ham Lake, Minnesota 55304
You can phone for directions at 763-754-7111 or my cell # 763-464-8363

Sunday December 1, 2002

The best directions I can give you are; We are approximately 1 mile north of Anoka County 242, which is Anoka's main street. This is on Jefferson St. [right on the corner of the Tom Thumb, across from Roosevelt Middle school, 1/2 mile from the Blaine H.S.] Which is about 1.2 miles west of Hwy 65, about 1/2 mile from University Ave.
And 242 is about 10 miles north of 694. Need more?
Dwight McCullough
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