Shine suspension on an A1 Rabbit

[GodSquadMandrake]

Review on VW Vortex... (http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2001050)



Well installed it this week and got my alignment issues straight. Just spent a couple of hours tossing it around on the local highways and byways, and I have some comments if any one is interested. By the way, I went with the Bilstein Sports on the advice of Eli as the car is not a daily, but more of a weekend hell raiser. I am running 195/60/13s so the tires are the weak link. I will eventually go to 215-235 13s or 205/50/15s depending on the class I run in for autocross.
1. Looks well lets just say you could probably do some serious off-roading if you were so inclined.
2. Rides smooth if the streets are reasonably smooth and you are going straight. If however you push the car hard in a turn and happen to hit a pot hole, you might chip a tooth. 2 words of warning for off ramps…EXPANSION JOINTS!!! The normal thump, thump, thump turns into BAM, BAM, BAM. This only applies if you are going twice the posted recommended speed. Now onto the good stuff.
3. The car does whatever you tell it to do. Slam on the brakes and cut the wheel like you almost missed your turn, no problem. U-turn at 30+ mph, thank you sir may I have another. It has to be the closest thing to a street legal gokart without having a fabrication shop and a machinist.
4. The balance is very good. Push the car hard and it will do any if the following three things. If you are hard on the gas the car will understeer slightly. If you are light on the gas, coasting, or are light on the brakes, the car is neutral. If you jump on the brakes the tail end kicks out but when you let off the brakes it comes right back.
5. At speed, 70-90 mph, (I know some people will say that is not speed but I have a stock 1.7) the car feels like is glued to the road. It inspires confidence that you probably shouldn’t use but never the less the car feels like it will go where ever you point the steering wheel.

I would recommend the kit to anyone interested in handling without having to tinker with anything. I would probably suggest the HDs if the car is a daily and the roads are rough. If you want to look cool and ride smooth, look elsewhere. You will not be happy. I will be attending a local autocross in June so stay tuned. Oh yeah pics…



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/Hcarpenter/100_1198.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/Hcarpenter/100_1199.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/Hcarpenter/fb7c25af.jpg

[Rex Jr]

Not that I question the owner's analysis of the his car's new handling prowess, but if it were my car I wouldn't be happy at all about that ride height thing going on. Not just because it looks too off-road, but because physics dictates that lateral loads are esier to keep stable with a lower center of gravity. I can only image how great that thing might handle if the kit had taken off 1"-1.5" of ride height as opposed to adding it.

That being said, I've never heard anything bad about Shine Racing's chassis bits. I've been a satisfied customer of theirs with my '84 Rabbit and my '91 GTi.

[GodSquadMandrake]

For those of you who aren't familiar with shine they are a smaller suspension company that makes suspension kits for VW's. Shine is unique in their approach because they don't lower the car, and they use linear spring rates.

At first you would think, a lower car handles better, that's what we're told right? The case is different on a VW. The reason for this is the stock ride height is already at optimum suspension geometry. As you lower the car the control arms go below parellel. In a corner this changes your camber roll. Because the control arm is already below parellel positive camber increases at a greater. So although lowering your VW will lower the center of gravity which is good, it throws off the suspension geometry more and more as you go lower.

http://www.srsvw.com/images/products/pro_a2realstreet.jpg
http://www.srsvw.com/images/homepic1.jpg
The Shine race car.

[SUV-ETR]

I'm kind of surprised at the ride height too. Seems taller than stock!

You can definitely go lower than stock without disrupting your camber curve enough to make it a bad thing. The goal is to keep the roll center above ground. On strut cars, that's the intersection in the middle of the car of two lines extended from the control arms. When your car is too low, those lines intersect at a point below the surface of the road. All sorts of bad things start to happen. Due to geometry, your effective spring rates go down, you experience weight jacking, and your roll couple starts to increase dramatically with suspension travel, so your car actually rolls MORE.

Most people keep their control arms about parallel at static ride height. Under bump, the control arms usually don't go far enough upward to mess with things too bad.

Shine generally sells good stuff. If you want a great handling street car or Club Racer, they're not a bad choice. They stick to the "traditional" setup of a big rear swaybar and stock (or no) front swaybar that people have been running on the street and on the open track for years. SRS cars have been very successful in Club Racing. If you want a big rear bar, I like they way they make theirs...simple and effective.

But I recommend you do NOT talk to Dick Shine if you want the ultimate pure-autocross setup for your VW. He's just plain wrong and doesn't know what he's talking about. But no matter how many National-level FSP/SM/EP trophies anyone gets in Sciroccos and Rabbits with huge front swaybars and no rear swaybar, Dick will still call you an idiot to your face and wonder out loud how anyone could be so stupid to set their car up that way. (oh, yeah, did I mention he's a little arrogant, too?)

Whatever. :rolleyes:

YMMV, of course. But Shine has not been very popular among the hard-core autocross crowd.

Neal

[GodSquadMandrake]

Well i'm not saying that his way is the #1 best. I've never used any shine suspension parts, but I did make a replica of his rear bar that works pretty good.

Ok now about the front bar. I used to hear that it was good to have more bar in the front, so I put on a thicker front swaybar. It seems to decrease the sway (surprising!) and help stabilize the the car going into turns but I wouldn't say that it improved how fast I can actually get through a corner.

I was thinking about disconnecting the end links on the saybar just to test out what difference it makes when it's not connected. I've heard that it'll help my understeer.

[pinhead]

but I wouldn't say that it improved how fast I can actually get through a corner.


This is probably not the most imporatant thing to consider in an autocross setup. See Neals post above ;) I think people running w/o a front sway bar for autocross are nuts.

A bunch of mini people are trying to run in stock with smaller front swaybars or no front swaybars, yet the car that won HS nationals last year had a BIGGER than stock front swaybar on it.

If autocross was all about sweepers and cornering speed, our 4 door Civic would cream my Mini Cooper. But it's not, and the Mini is faster around an autocross course.

[SUV-ETR]

Ok now about the front bar. I used to hear that it was good to have more bar in the front, so I put on a thicker front swaybar

It isn't that simple at all.

Swaybars are springs. They just work in a somewhat different manner than the coil springs. Thus, you can't just throw on a big front swaybar and expect it to work, unless you actually intended to increase your front spring rate in roll by a substantial amount.

It is all a balancing act. The official "BFB" (Big Front Bar) setup uses HUGE rear spring rates to restore the balance when you add a big front swaybar and remove the rear bar. I run 600lb/in rear springs, with shocks valved appropriately to handle that. In the end, the overall wheel rates in roll of the BFB vs. the Shine setup probably aren't all that far apart. Or at least the *ratios* probably aren't that far off.

But they vary greatly in static bump rates, and have lots of other effects in transitions and in the way weight is transfered through the car. The presumption is that bump rates don't matter all that much on an autocross car, but transition characteristics are EVERYTHING. On a flowing, high-speed open track or on the street, the opposite is probably true (though for different reasons in each case). But the bottom line is that autocross is not the same as road racing or street driving.

Another common compliment to BFB that makes it work better is tons of positive caster. The VW autocross guys run as much as they can legally get with modified camber plates and control arm bushings. Shine and Ground control both say that is supposed to be bad for handling too. ;)

Neal

[SUV-ETR]

A bunch of mini people are trying to run in stock with smaller front swaybars or no front swaybars, yet the car that won HS nationals last year had a BIGGER than stock front swaybar on it.

Be careful here. The reason this works on a tall, heavy, FWD/AWD Stock class car is totally different than any other car or category. In stock class, the front bar and the shock valving are the only things you are allowed to change. So you end up using them as a crutch to fix things that would be much better off to fix in some other way. It is a highly compromised setup that only applies to the particular situation of H/G/D-Stock cars.

In the case of the front swaybar, it does help initial transition response. But more importantly, it reduces roll, which keeps the contact patch of the tires on the ground better. It also REMOVES traction from the front wheels by transfering weight rearward in roll, which normally induces understeer in a bad way. But on a stock car you actually more than make up for it with a flat front contact patch, so it ends up with a net good effect. In anything other than stock, you'd probably go a completely different route.

Neal

[GodSquadMandrake]

http://bling.imperial.org/ben/mowog2/maroonmk2.jpg

Check out this pic. My outside front wheel is nearly coming off the ground, while my inside wheel has so much postive camber it looks like it's about to fold in. I am just wondering what would happen if I removed my front bar and dialed in maximum static camber.... (2.5 degrees)

[phile]

http://bling.imperial.org/ben/mowog2/maroonmk2.jpg

Check out this pic. My outside front wheel is nearly coming off the ground, while my inside wheel has so much postive camber it looks like it's about to fold in. I am just wondering what would happen if I removed my front bar and dialed in maximum static camber.... (2.5 degrees)

First, you need to straighten out your termonology to agree with the rest of us. Probably just a typo, eh?

Your INside front wheel is nearly coming off the ground.
Your OUTside front wheel has so much postive camber it looks like it's about to fold in.

Dialing-in more static camber is probably a good idea.

Removing your front bar is just going to allow more body roll. I'd expect that only changing static camber and removing the front bar would give you a worse-handling car on any tires with any grip to them.

If you are serious about running E-Modified, you need to do some serious suspension work. I'd probably consider large increases in spring rate and some lowering, but I am not an expert on this chassis. Neal is probably your best source for advice, along with Bill Owen and Pat Washburn. I'd also suggest asking on autox@autox.team.net for people who have done serious suspension mods to this generation of Jetta.

May the force vectors be with you.

[washburn]

...Neal is probably your best source for advice, along with Bill Owen and Pat Washburn. ...


Don't ask me! According to Neal, who knows a lot more about VW setup than I do, I'm running the wrong set up. No front bar, big rear bar, stiffer rates all around. Not that I care much this year....I just want to get in and drive and not worry about piddly little thing like setup! Proper setup is for weenies. :)

[Rex Jr]

The first, and last, time I spoke with Dick Shine, the first thing that came to mind was how appropriate his first name was :-) He basically told me I was a fool and was wasting his time with my questions about wanting an autox car that could also be enjoyed on the street occasionally. This was when I was selecting parts for my '84 Rabbit project a few years ago.

About the BFB vs. BRB vs. both, etc. A big part of it is also going to be driver preferece. The engineering and geometry might say one thing, but if the driver can't make the most of it, it doesn't do much good. I don't claim to be even nearly as knowledgeable as Neal, but I know that I personally prefer, with VWs at least, a big rear bar and a small front bar. On the other hand, it's not as though I was ever much of a trophy contender in any of my VWs :-)

About ride height on VWs. I don't believe for a minute that the roll center is compromised so much in heavy cornering that raising the ride height above stock is needed. Lowering a VW to the point of control-arms-parralel-to-the-ground is considered by many more tuners than just SRS to be totally acceptible and far more beneficial than stock ride height.

[GodSquadMandrake]

Thanks for the comments Phil. I'll do springs soon. I have to upgrade my wallet thickness and driving skills first though.

[SUV-ETR]

According to Neal, who knows a lot more about VW setup than I do, I'm running the wrong set up.

Not the wrong setup...just the "traditional" setup. :D

Most everyone Nationally has been running the BFB or something similar for the past couple years. But I know of nobody running STS competitively in a VW, so I can't say if street tire traction changes the dynamics of things. I know the STS Civics aren't running quite the same setup as their CSP comrads.

Obviously, nobody is saying that you can't be fast with the BRB setup. But the trend at the top is pretty clear. Mostly, it just irritates me that Dick Shine is so arrogant that he will call the best VW autocrossers in the country stupid.

All that said, I think I'm not the first one who has theorized that Mr. Pat Washburn could make a run for FTD in a Cub Foods shopping cart. 8)

[Rex Jr]

Maybe not one from Cub, but definitely a Home Depot or Marshal Fields cart :-)


Hey, lookit that! My 100th post.

[Strider]

So what does the BFB do for the handleing. My car is nice and solid but for me it still understeers to much. If I start to run a 10 lb difference in pressure (lower in front) I can finally start to feel the rear come around. I'm so used to cars plowing through everything that I guess I'm not sure exactly how the car should feel. I raced in Bill Owens Jetta last year but only recently have I been really paying alot of attention to what the car is telling me. What took me so long, been trying to take it ALL in at once and that slowed me down.

[SUV-ETR]

been trying to take it ALL in at once and that slowed me down.

Maybe you just gave yourself the best advice anyone can give.

There's no magic to this stuff. You really have to put in the seat time, and experiment with setting while you're doing it. There's a certain point where you can read everything online, but you really just have to start mucking with tire pressures (or whatever) and really paying attention to how the car feels when you change something. Change one thing at a time, and then keep playing with that one thing until you know the effect it will have on your car.

Try this: The next event, focus on the FRONT tires. Start with pressures you know are too low. Pay *real* close attention to how the front end of the car responds to throttle, steering, brakes, etc. For run #2, increase by 3psi, and see if you can tell the difference. Go up another 3psi for run #3. See if you notice the difference then. Hopefully, you'll gradually feel the front tires get more and more grip, until on one run you think that maybe they didn't grip so well. But keep going up another 3psi for the next run. If you were right, it should now definitely feel worse. Go another 3psi for your last run...yup, now that's REALLY bad! Now, start a notebook and record your results and where you felt the best traction.

Then, for the next event after that, do the REAR tires...

Important note for some people just getting started: You have to drive as consistent as possible to make this work, or at least know how to identify mistakes in your own driving. If you are still just learning how to drive fast on an autocross, you might still not have enough of a feel for your own skills to know whether the run was faster because the tires had more grip, or if it was because you made fewer mistakes. In this case, you need to focus this kind of analysis on YOURSELF instead of tire pressure. What happens to my times if I brake too early for every turn? Then on the next run, what happens to my times if I brake a little later? A little more late? REALLY late? [car spins out or plows wide] OK...that was too late!

You just gotta tinker....

Neal