Atten 8v Vdubs

[Strider]

http://www.bahnbrenner.com/media/php/catalog.php?pid=1153

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[GodSquadMandrake]

That would be a waste of money on an 8v engine imo. For $2,700 you could buy a whole new car.

[Strider]

yeah if you want to start all over again with a new car. Personally I'll pass, done that 3 times now...

[SUV-ETR]

This uses the same model Autorotor as I have on my car. Sure, you can get a new car for that $2700. Heck, I paid $300 for my Scirocco, but I prefer to have one FAST Scirocco instead of nine SLOW ones. :D

I have a few personal gripes with John Betz of BBM. But his kits do seem to be generally of good quality and he has many happy customers. Unless you are an engineer with a machine shop at your disposal, this is IMHO the cheapest, fastest, and best way to build the ultimate VW engine for Street Modified.

The base kit will get you somewhere over 150whp. 180whp is a pretty easy step from there, but with the proper additional options and tuning (some of which will also not be cheap), it is possible to exceed my 235whp/205wtq.

So, yeah. Spending $5k on an old 8v VW engine is a lot of money for an old VW. But if you want to play "seriously" in SM, what are your other options? From a pure VW owner perspective, I've dumped an irresponsible amount of money into my car. But there are probably only two or three competitive cars in the country that are faster that were built for less than DOUBLE the cost of my Scirocco. VWs are cheap, even after a $2700 supercharger kit. Anyone looked at supercharger kits for M3s lately? *shivvvver* Heck, you'd be lucky to find a bone-stock used M3 that wasn't completely thrashed for under $10k.

If anyone is seriously consdiering a competitive SM car (VW or otherwise), I'd be happy to discuss it futher. There are lots of good options/variations consider...

Neal

[Strider]

Neal do you have that gold rocco that cleaned house at Midway last year?

[jdlhonda]

I'm not Neal but yes he does.

Neal I would assume the EF Civic is on that list of good cheap affordable car that with the right mod's and money can clean up in SM or least have fun being close and trying. That's why I got mine.

I think between the rocco and EF and maybe a few others that's about it for FWD in SM but RWD and AWD I think those are wide open. I think a Starion could be freaky in SM, given the right prep and driver.




Jason

[SUV-ETR]

Neal I would assume the EF Civic is on that list of good cheap affordable car that with the right mod's and money can clean up in SM or least have fun being close and trying. That's why I got mine.


ABSOLUTELY! Your gen Civic, and possibly the next gen one (the one with the egg shaped hatch) are arguably the best overall FWD choices. Double wishbone suspension and plenty of power potential with the ability to meet minimum weight. It is easier and cheaper to get a Civic into the competitive realm than just about anything else. Civic parts are generally a little more than VW, but don't have to do quite as much work to a Civic to get it 90% of the way there. The same effort/mods on a VW will probably only get you to 70-80%. And EVERYTHING becomes expensive in the last 10%. ;)

There are still questions remaining as to whether the A1 VW chassis/suspension balance can ever be made equal to a Civic, but the VWs can go so far below the minimum weight that I am hoping I can use that "extra" weight to do things that will make up the difference in balance and sophistication. Along with some custom suspension work, I think I can get there.



I think between the rocco and EF and maybe a few others that's about it for FWD in SM but RWD and AWD I think those are wide open. I think a Starion could be freaky in SM, given the right prep and driver.

Mostly agreed. Though I don't really consdier AWD "wide open" because there are so few candidates available. Audi, VW, Toyota and just about all the others are way too heavy. That leaves all the DSM variants (Eclipse, Lancer, etc) and the Subarus. Of those, the '93-'97 Subarus are probably a tad lighter than all the others, and they all have equivalent power and suspension potential. The only possible spoiler I can think of would be someone with a 323GTX who can spend the $15k on an XTRAC transmission...

I agree RWD is truly wide open. The only obvious entry is the M3, but there are many possibilities that haven't been tried. And what is really wierd is that I haven't heard of anybody doing anything other than an M3 seriously...

Neal

[SUV-ETR]

Neal do you have that gold rocco that cleaned house at Midway last year?

Well, it is gold, and I have had to clean up after it sometimes when it throws parts at corner workers, if that's what you mean... :p

[StevenMosley]

How much is a 1.8t swap? Does it weigh more? They seem to have a higher ceiling for power.

[MNbiker]

Mostly agreed. Though I don't really consdier AWD "wide open" because there are so few candidates available. Audi, VW, Toyota and just about all the others are way too heavy. That leaves all the DSM variants (Eclipse, Lancer, etc) and the Subarus. Of those, the '93-'97 Subarus are probably a tad lighter than all the others, and they all have equivalent power and suspension potential. The only possible spoiler I can think of would be someone with a 323GTX who can spend the $15k on an XTRAC transmission...


My prediction? The 2005 SM National Champ will be driving an '05 Evolution RS. Of course, my prediction has something to do with the driver (http://www.autox4u.com/driver/oct%202004/)..... ;)

[SUV-ETR]

How much is a 1.8t swap? Does it weigh more? They seem to have a higher ceiling for power.

The 20v head does weigh a fair bit more, and ALL the weight is at the top of the engine bay. They certainly do have a higher ceiling. You can do 300+whp in a "streetable" 1.8t. For a street car, 1.8t would be the way to go (actually, I might vote for turboing a 16v). And the cost to do it properly would be similar or less than what I have in my motor.

But IMHO that's all totally irrelavant if you are building the car purely for autox. The torque curve and lag characteristics of a turbo car are simply not as drivable on an autox course. And especially in a FWD car, drivablity becomes at least as important as power when you start talking about less than 10lbs/hp. Sure, if a top-notch driver lays down a perfect run in a turbo car, they can be every bit as fast, but a turbo will exaggerate even the tiniest mistake by dropping you out of boost. My STi has about the least lag of any turbo car I've ever driven, and it still costs me time if I make a mistake and have to back off the throttle at the wrong moment. Meanwhile, the Scirocco (like a big V8) wouldn't skip a beat.

There are also issues with part-throttle situations when the driver sets the throttle at the desired level in a sweeper, only to have the car's balance be thrown off when the turbo spools. Kent Rafferty (first "provisional" SM Nat'l Champion in a Supra) talked about the difficulties of suddenly going from 150whp to 300whp in the middle of a turn even though the throttle stayed in exactly the same spot.

Any time you de-couple the engine's power output from your right foot, you've made your job as a driver more difficult. As a driver you can certainly adapt, but there is a greater potential for mistakes, and a lower tolerance for dealing with them when they happen.

And as for power, even with aftermarket traction control, a well-designed supercharged engine will make more power than you can use on an autocross course with FWD. This is really the killer factor IMHO if you're building a FWD car. An EVO might be able to use more power than a supercharged engine could easily provide, so a turbo may be worth the drivablity problems, but there's only so much you can put down in a FWD car.

But then, of course, there's anti-lag... :evil:

Neal
(hmmm.... a 323gtx with an XTRAC and anti-lag. yummy!)

[StevenMosley]

That 1.8T is pretty lagless. I would think one with a stock turbo and a chip with no cats and exhaust would be a good combo. How much does that swap run?

[SUV-ETR]

That 1.8T is pretty lagless. I would think one with a stock turbo and a chip with no cats and exhaust would be a good combo. How much does that swap run?

Well, "pretty lagless" is still worse than "no lag". The STi has less lag than any 1.8t I've driven. I stand by my argument regarding drivability!

But don't get me wrong: as turbo motors go, the 1.8t is a great motor. I am a bit out of touch with the cost. When I first started to build my car, they were still really expensive, but I hear they've come down a lot. A quick glance at Vortex shows ~$2000 for long block and ECU. But putting one in an A1 takes a bit more work than the other 4cyl engines, mostly just due to turbo/intercooler plumbing (not much room for turbo manifolds and intercoolers in the old cars, so it is a bit tougher than other cars) and a few tweaks to engine mounts, so don't forget to budget for that stuff. The actual cost for that stuff is all over the map depending on how much custom work you can do yourself, and how "ghetto" you want to get.

But don't discount that turbo 16v. Cheaper to start with (~$500), and actually has a bit higher potential if you do a "built" block and head. That was my #2 choice.

Neal

[Strider]

How much is a 1.8t swap? Does it weigh more? They seem to have a higher ceiling for power.

Well a 1.8t swap will run you around 10grand or so to do. S&L did one in a MkII and it was ALOT of work. It can be done but it is labor intensive. There is also a Rabbit 1.8t swap out there. I'm not sure how much it cost him to do it but it can't be to far of the MkII price. Then you have to deal with Turbo lag, I'll take a supercharged Xflow thanks, about half the price of a 1.8T swap. P&P, cam, LSD and custom tranny and you still are under the cost of a 1.8t swap...

[jdlhonda]

My prediction? The 2005 SM National Champ will be driving an '05 Evolution RS. Of course, my prediction has something to do with the driver (http://www.autox4u.com/driver/oct%202004/)..... ;)

My personal pic is the EF Civic that will be campaigned by Chris Janusz and Chris Shenefield and is being built by RedShift Motorsports(Shenefield's shop) but then again I'm a bit biased in my pick. Just like I keep cheering for them underperforming BAR Honda's these days in F1. :)

I'm also hoping Neal does very well if he get that Rocco all back together and in top form in time. Good Luck Neal


Jason

[SUV-ETR]

Well a 1.8t swap will run you around 10grand or so to do.

Well, they definitley USED to cost that much. I know people who have spent that much. But that was a few years ago when a 1.8t swap was still a "new" thing. It isn't yet "old hat", but the cost of the engines is down significantly, and the more knowledge that is out there now should bring the labor costs down a bit too, no?

So, you're still talking $6-$7k or something like that. But wouldn't it probably cost $3-$4 at least just to do a 2.0L 16v swap into an A1 if you had it done professionally? Professional labor is EXPENSIVE.

Again, it really comes down to how much you can do yourself. I've heard of people doing 20v 1.8t swaps for less than $2500. They scored a killer deal on an engine and did all the work themselves with OEM intercoolers steel mandrel bends, and other inexpensive parts...

Did that Mk-II swap also include a cable shift tranny? That would add a LOT of cost that isn't strictly necessary...

Neal

[Strider]

S&L's swap was motor and MkIV tranny swap yeah. To do a 16v swap professionally I imagine would be about the same price as a Xflow, labor wise. There was a thread on the tex that gave a quick run down of swap costs. 1.8T would bet the king of expensive, then a VR6, then Xflow, last 16v. The really nice thing about Xflow and 16v is that they will physically drop right in. Only hard part is wiring. I hope to do my Xflow swap myself to keep it cheap and to say that I did it :) .

[GodSquadMandrake]

I would be more likely to do a 16v swap. You can put a 16v in any MK2 fairly easily. For my car the only modifications needed are a fuel rail. I could use the same transmission and engine management even.

[Drew]

Well, I'm definitely not in the same league as anyone prepping for National level competition with a turbo swap.

But FWIW, I hope to have a 2.0 ABA block (with the 1.8 head) in my 92 Golf by mid-season. If I follow through on the whole plan, it'll include a cam, A/C removal, different trans, suspension improvements I haven't figured out yet, wider wheels and r-compounds. (And oh yeah, Evo School this fall.)

I've been about a mid-pack, local level competitor for few years now; but so far I haven't wanted to make much of a financial commitment (car or driver ed). And I don't have any delusions about becoming a national level competitor with this set up and at my age.

But SM seems like a cool place where you can spend some money, but not necessarily a fortune, and have a bit more fun. V-dubs and a few other really good cars seem to be practical platforms for these type projects. There sure seem to be a lot of ways to go with these cars.

Neal, I'm sure any VW competitor appreciates hearing about your car and competition experience.

--Drew

[SUV-ETR]

Thanks for the compliments Drew!

And I just want to reiterate that I'm not saying everyone needs to go build a SM car to try to win nationals. For that, you have to be willing to spend more $$$ and you will make different decisions.

You can still be VERY competitive, even on a national level, with very inexpensive turbo or even N/A setups. Remember that the DRIVER is the most important part of all. Heck, after a set of...shall we say..."less-than-perfect" runs, I was nearly beaten in raw times on the 2nd day at Nationals '03 by a guy in a very under-developed Scirocco with a simple 2.0L 16v swap, and in the end I think he only just barely missed a trophy.

There are LOTS of cool options for building a fun SM car that will fit your personality and budget while still being damn fast. That's what drew met to the class too. But if you're looking for every last bit of competitive advantage, then I have a real strong opinion regarding the "best" autocross setups, at least regarding FWD and AWD.

Neal

[Drew]

But if you're looking for every last bit of competitive advantage, then I have a real strong opinion regarding the "best" autocross setups, at least regarding FWD and AWD.

Neal

Well that's a hint I won't pass up. ;)

You can expect me to try and pry out a few of those setup ideas that might work for my VW. :evil:

--Drew