tire choice which one

[jdlhonda]

the good folks here at MAC -

I'll be running an SM 91 Civic next year due to a B16A or a B17A motor swap, currently has a B16A but I have a B17A as well may use as it has more torque. Now my budget currently doesn't allow for me to buy new rims I have two sets to chose from 14 x 5.5 inch rims from my 92 GSR I needed to shift to 3rd on bigger courses or bounce off the rev limitier for awhile(in my 92 GSR), or 15 x 6 rims off a 94 GSR.

I was thinking due to gearing I would like to go with the 15's and also due to the lack of sizes for a 14 other than the 195's in which I ran kumho V700's this year on a 92 GSR, and also a 91 Civic HB with the std 70hp motor. :zzz

I was weighing these 3 choices. I chose the kumho's mainly due to price and others seem to like them. One last thing will the tires last 12 -16 events as I hope to do all the MAC and LOL events unless they fall on the same day.

V710 205/50/15
V700 205/50/15
V700 225/50/15

Thanks for all your input.

To give you a better idea of the car these tires will be going on. It's a 91 Civic HB with the braking system from a 92 GSR, ie rear disc(trailing arm swap), booster, master cylinder, front discs,prop valve if i can find one reasonably priced, the B16A has different ECU, standard I/H/E, currently has tokico blues and eibach sportline springs hoping to change that to ground control coilovers and koni yellows (450f/500r), urethane bushings, a suspension techniques 22 mm rear bar and a front strut bar.:D

The big thing missing will the be the LSD, quaife just out of my budget. But, would it be better to invest in the quaife and forget the groundcontrol springs and koni's?

again

Thanks for all your input.

Jason

[aansorge]

As far as rim size goes, generally it is best to go for wider and lower. The width of the rim allows wider tires and a better contact patch while the smaller diameter lowers the car's center of gravity. In your case, I would go for the 15 x 6 as this has more width and you have gearing issues with the 14's.

As far as tires, if you want to get an entire season out of 'em, get the Victos.

As far as tire size, I would lean towards the 205 because of clearance issues, but if they will fit, the 225's would probably be slightly quicker. The 205's would have crisper turn-in and better general overall feel on a 6 inch rim, however.

[StevenMosley]

Originally posted by aansorge


As far as rim size goes, generally it is best to go for wider and lower. The width of the rim allows wider tires and a better contact patch while the smaller diameter lowers the car's center of gravity. In your case, I would go for the 15 x 6 as this has more width and you have gearing issues with the 14's.

As far as tires, if you want to get an entire season out of 'em, get the Victos.

As far as tire size, I would lean towards the 205 because of clearance issues, but if they will fit, the 225's would probably be slightly quicker. The 205's would have crisper turn-in and better general overall feel on a 6 inch rim, however.

I agree with Adam. I would go with V700's in 205/50R15. They take a licking and keep on ticking. :) On a 15x6 inch rim a 225/50R15 would be very disorted. I'm being told that I need at least 15x8's to run them properly on the front of my car. Check out this link for general tire sizing. http://www.1010tires.com/TireSizeCalculator.asp?action=submit

As for mods. The Ground Controls or LSD would be nice, but I think you would be better off getting better rims then either.

BTW:
What do you have for sway bars under it?
Do you have anyway to adjust the camber?

[jdlhonda]

Ingalls camber kit, for adjusting the camber. I'll most likely be removing the front sway bar and running only the 22mm suspension techniques rear sway bar for autocross use anyways.

Really wide lightweight rims over either of the two mods the LSD or GC coilovers/koni's? I understand they would help by allowing for a wider undistorted tire which I guess makes sense tires are always the fastest, most effective mod.

Maybe I'll keep looking for those 15 x 7 or 7.5 Rota Slipstreams I really like. and mount a 225 on them. Anybody have any good susggestions, the a 15 x 7 or better for the afore mentioned car. I've got a thing for black rims too though, hehe

I guess i could always paint a new Kosei K1 what do you guys think.

Say one could get new rims and found an extra grand to spend go with the GC/koni combo, just buy koni's and use the sportlines or get the Quaife LSD?


Jason

[StevenMosley]

I would go with the Quaife LSD and maybe a set of race springs. I love the Tokico HP's even if they are not adjustable. I had mine with H&R race springs. I would also probably leave the front sway bar and see if you have room to drill some holes in it to make it adjustable.

It will all take about a season to figure out so let the fun begin!

[jdlhonda]

Would anyone put the Quaife ahead of getting new rims and running 205's instead of 225's.



Jason

[StevenMosley]

I'm not sure if I would run 225's on 15x7's. We ran 205's on our GSR with 15x7 K1's.
205/50R15's have a section width just over 8 inches, 225/50R15's are close to 9 inches.
I'm thinking with 225's you are going to run into clearance issues and might have problems getting the desired camber.

As for LSD, We didn't have it on the GSR and mostly we didn't miss it, then again it is hard to tell if you miss something without ever having it. I'm thinking it would have been great on long sweepers at Saint Cloud.

[jdlhonda]

Alrighty then looks like the 205's then. They will help with the gearing but, not change it too much and also fit. I'll be running like -3 to -2.5 camber in the front so. If things go really well I'll have a Quaife LSD, read somewhere it's worth possibly up to 1.5 seconds on a 60 second course, assuming one drives it right. Which will take me awhile. hehe



The silly making decisions, bench racing season. Thank god it only has a few more months to go. At this rate I'm gonna have to hit the first Iowa event March??? :dancin:

[rdub]

The December 2004 Grassroots Motorsports issue has almost this very topic in the tech section,its worth a read

[phile]

Originally posted by StevenMosley

I would also probably leave the front sway bar and see if you have room to drill some holes in it to make it adjustable.



OK. I'm confused. The original question was about removing the front bar. The typical modifications made by drilling holes in a sway bar to make it adjustable result in a bar that is stock stiffness adjustable to greater stiffness. This is done by moving the point where the link meets the arm section of the bar. Drilling holes in the bar for various mounting points for the links is one way, but I'd prefer not to do it that way. A common method which I had on my Midget was aluminum slider blocks. Each block was attached to the link via a Heim joint. The other hole in the block was saw-cut, and the cut was crossed by a bolt. I would position the block wherever I liked on the bar, then tighten the bolt to clamp the block to the bar. This gives the ability to make very small adjustments, and on the Midget, I needed them. I was walking a fine line between wheelspin and understeer. (Sure, a TorSen would have helped...)

There is a method to soften a sway bar via mounting. First, of course, you get the links mounted as close to the end of the bar's arms as possible. If the bar is still too stiff, you could either:
Shave the bar so the working portion is thinner.
and/or
Put softer bushings in the chassis mountings.
and/or
Put softer bushings in the link mountings.
and/or
Allow the links to telescope via little springs.
and/or
Somehow extend the arms on the bar.
and/or
Use the trick I learned from Brian Erickson and move the chassis mounts closer together.

Brian had a non-adjustable rear bar in the MGB. He wanted less rear stiffness, and experimented with different chassis mounts spacings. When he found a stiffness he liked for autocross, he kept it there. When he went to a big-track day, he removed the chassis bushings on the rear bar.

Not all cars are going to use bar-mounting locations that are easily changed. It just happens that it was fairly simple on the MGB and MG Midget rear-bar setups.

Another method would be to install a zee bar, but I'm not going there...

[rdub]

No,the original question was sort of a wheels and tires (best size) then limited slip
and misc sway bar talk .
If it was my $'s I'd put 13X8s on it

[jdlhonda]

13's would be alright but then I'd have to shift to 3rd, plus they won't fit over the brakes that are going to be on this car.

The basis for the car is the Honda Civic SiR only offered in japan it came with a B16 and 4 wheel disc just like what is on a 90 - 93 Integra, I happen to own a 92 GSR so the brakes are getting swapped. I'll feel better on the street when driving this thing with all the added horsepower by beefing up the brakes too.

The sway bar stuff, from everything I've read about these cars many run no bar in front or the hollow CRX HF bar in front and most run the 22mm suspension techniques bar in back.

I may have an Si bar to run up front but may need to make it not so stiff. Should one make it less stiff or just remove it to gain the desired oversteer. But what am i compromising by removing it. What the best way to make it less stiff?

Just got back from picking up the car that I bought that had a bunch of this done and it is gonna be a helluva ride if I can drive it properly. After driving that 70hp(factory rated) version and having a ball with that, this thing with at least a 100 extra hp at the crank is just gonna Rock. Neal will be safe untill I figue out how to drive though. :D



Jason

[aansorge]

One way to make an si bar "less stiff" is to loosen the end links a whole bunch to give it some slop. Do this for the autocrosses and then tighten 'em back up for running on the road or for track days. I did this to my front sway on my CRX si and it seemed to allow the car to hook up a bit better out of the corners. Others will say that you will loose more time in the slaloms than you will gain elsewhere on course, so you should experiment and see which setup you like best.

[pinhead]

A nice set of 13" wheels might fit over the bigger brakes.

I know a guy out East was running 13" Panasports on an Integra GSR. There is a difference between "good" 13inch wheels and the ones that come OEM on cheap cars :D

[jdlhonda]

Cool I'll have to look into that 13 in rim thing I can see accleration would be better not sure that I want to have to shift to 3rd but, it maybe ultimately faster so who know's.

I guess now I'm maybe looking at the differences between the 13's and a 15's rims and tire and tires for them. I guess I wouldn't know all the pros/cons of the two but I'll take a little stab at some of them help out if you can.

13's
pro's
better accleration, less unsprung weight, lower center of gravity
con's
gearing will likely have to shift to 3rd, have to be pretty picky on which ones I get so they clear the brakes
15's
pro's
likely no shifting to 3rd, better turn in feel?, steering response? brakes run cooler
con's
slower accel than the 13's

If anything i guess I can just start by compromising and looking really hard for some 14 x7's do they even make such a thing.

[pinhead]

If I understand right, at this point you already own the 15" wheels? I'd just run those for next year, with some 205/50/15 V700's or V710's.

A set of nice 13" wheels isn't going to be cheap, so if it was me, I'd run the car with the wheels you already own, and spend the money on other parts of the car.

[the tick]

I haven't tried these, but I've heard good things. 13 x 8 for under $70 and about 13 lbs.

http://www.diamondracingwheels.com/index.htm

[MNbiker]

Originally posted by the tick

I haven't tried these, but I've heard good things. 13 x 8 for under $70 and about 13 lbs.

http://www.diamondracingwheels.com/index.htm

I have a 14" set for my Miata that I'll use for local events. They're not light, but they are sturdy, round & cheap.

-Steve

[jdlhonda]

hmm further opening a can of worms. now compromising seems quite possible. I could afford to buy those rims in any of the 13,14,15 in diameter sizes and also buy tires. I could even buy the wider sizes to allow for max width on the tire say a 225 just not quite sure how I'd stuff it under the wheelwell. With the Eibach sportline springs on it and 195/50/15 and they are close to the edge of the fender and also not very far away in the up direction as well. Going with the 14 maybe ideal for me. The Compromise 14 in. maybe the best answer, no brake interference issues, wide as possible tire, in between on the gearing most courses no 3rd, some maybe.



Anybody know what kind of offset needed to fit a 225/50/14 under a 4th gen hatch.

This would let me run the 15's with street tires, put my current 14's on a differenct car and have dedicated autocross rim and tire combo.

[pinhead]

All of the CSP/SM Hondas that I've ever seen on 13" wheels just let the wheels stick out. The diameter of the tire is small enough that it won't be anywhere close to the fender lip.

[jdlhonda]

how much are they lowering those CSP/SM Civics you'd swear by looking at the current 15's on it that they would rub and im sure they would but I guess i'd probaly gain an 1 of clearance with the 13's, while dropping overall ride height of the car and cg down by an inch.

[MNbiker]

Originally posted by jdlhonda

how much are they lowering those CSP/SM Civics you'd swear by looking at the current 15's on it that they would rub and im sure they would but I guess i'd probaly gain an 1 of clearance with the 13's, while dropping overall ride height of the car and cg down by an inch.



Besides lower unsprung weight, tire clearance is the big reason the Miatas, CRX's, Civics run 13's. The taller tires give you basically zero suspension travel on a seriously lowered vehicle.

In STS, where competitve 13" (or even 14") tires aren't available, the top Civics are going through a set or two of fender liners per season.