selling autox spots

[evilpope2001]

I feel that people are registering for events even though they will probably not make the event.

If you aren't going to attend the event don't take the spot from someone who cant troll the forums all day waiting for a spot to show up in the for sale section.

I think that MAC needs to have a better way of dealing with spots that come up. One idea would be to introduce a refund policy. People wouldn't have to sell their spot to not lose money. It could also reduce scalping because there would be no guarantee that the scalper would sell their spot.

Just putting it out there.

[Scuba_Steve]

One solution may be to have a single source list of people waiting for spots on sold out events. If someone wants to sell their spot it goes to the next person on the list.

No more having to troll, no more constant threads on WTB or WTS.

[washburn]

We've kicked around some ideas in the past. One reason we went to the no refund policy is because people *were* registering just to hold a spot. If you can just get a refund, why not? Then 25 people bail, get refunds the spots go unused and and we lose money.

As to the waiting list, the main problem there I think is finding someone to administer it. I like the idea of having to think about whether or not you can go before you register. If it's a hassle selling the spot, you may need to think a little more before signing up.

[Andrew]

It doesn't seem to me (yet) that this has happened, there have been very few FS threads and even fewer of the people in the WTB threads have gotten a spot. Seems to me like people are planning on attending ATM. :?

[Dave Kral]

One idea would be to introduce a refund policy. People wouldn't have to sell their spot to not lose money.


A refund policy would make the problem worse. If there is no consequence to registering and then asking for a refund at the last minute, why wouldn't you register, even if you knew there was a good chance you might not be able to attend?

We instituted the no refund policy to reduce the number of people who register and don't show up. We realize that things may come up in the month between registering and the event, so selling spots is allowed. However, that is between individuals. The club doesn't have a paid staff to monitor or broker this kind of activity.

When you talk about scalping, I assume you are saying that slots are being sold above "face" value. This is the first time that I have heard of that happening, though I don't have time to troll the forums looking for that either.

Even if you are not able to preregister or purchase a spot, you can still show up early on the day of the event and put your name on the Waiting List. To date, there has never been an event where everyone who has preregistered has shown up. Why don't we start a Waiting List ahead of time? - please see above comment about no paid staff.

[JCN]

I feel that people are registering for events even though they will probably not make the event.

If you aren't going to attend the event don't take the spot from someone who cant troll the forums all day waiting for a spot to show up in the for sale section.

I think that MAC needs to have a better way of dealing with spots that come up. One idea would be to introduce a refund policy. People wouldn't have to sell their spot to not lose money. It could also reduce scalping because there would be no guarantee that the scalper would sell their spot.

Just putting it out there.

It's frustrating to not get a spot and wait around for one to come up for sale.

However, I've NEVER had a problem registering for an event at 12am when registration opens. To my knowledge, no regular event has ever filled within the first 8 hours. That means you could register in the morning before work and still be guaranteed a spot.

I agree that it would be a problem if people were buying 30 spots and the registration closed within minutes of opening, but that isn't happening.

So it begs the question of: Why does one need to troll the forums looking for the spot? Why did that person miss the registration in the first place?
Add that to the fact that we rarely (if ever) turn people away from the walk-up waiting list on the day of events and I don't see a problem.

I don't know any instances of people selling spots above face value.

I think an official wait list will cause more problems than it will solve.

[seannabend]

I think it is fine the way it is.

I haven't seen evidence of people taking advantage of the system and I have never heard of someone selling a spot for over face value.

[rdyzz]

is there any waiting list? id like to run at some of these events but seeing as thier closed for registration, theres really no where to push the car has hard as you can legally. :(

[JCN]

is there any waiting list? id like to run at some of these events but seeing as thier closed for registration, theres really no where to push the car has hard as you can legally. :(

There are currently spots for Novice school, MOWOG 1 and 2 available. Just contact the sellers and it's likely you can get the spot.

[applebit]

ahh the joys of growing the rules. With additional rules comes more additional rules. Kinda like laws.

This is the exact problem I have. I can't troll the forums all day either, nor can I get a spot prior to the day the event opens for registration because they are already bought the by the time I would be checking and purchasing.

I was the membership/registration guy for years - I know that doing advanced registration really helps (even though we did not have it, I saw the advantage of doing so).

I also saw the disadvantages of advanced registration and the potential for failures and discommunication.

A thought I had long ago:

- what if all the events are open from the beginning of the year? Would there still be a mad rush? Or the better question is, would it be the mad dash into the store for the "on sale" item thats there for a limited time?

Don't say you can answer that. You can't. I couldn't answer that one either. Believe me, I put lots of thought into registration to optimize it back in the day. I was always looking at ways to make sure registration would close at the right time with everyone registered for the event. Heck, I even ran the registration booth all by myself a few times (with 110-125 entrance!).

Sometimes you have to write ALL thoughts down before selecting one to test. Only there will you find what works and what doesn't. Obviously what worked in the past, and what is working now does work. But it does only allow the elitists to go to the events.

Sorry, I like to use the work elitists to get a reaction out of some who would get "offended" by this term.

[Justin (Vision Speedworks)]

There's no mystery. We KNOW when registration is going to open. 30 days prior to the event at midnight. Plan ahead and it's easy to get registered.

I think the current system is fine.

[Darryl]

Sorry, I like to use the work elitists to get a reaction out of some who would get "offended" by this term.

I'm not and I am...

The board and its members collectively, those who attended back in the day, made the decision to use myautoevents.com and open registration 30 days in advance… I’ve seen a few threads asking and a few complaining about registration as it is today but not one person has said it just doesn’t work, if they did they couldn’t come up with a good enough reason to change it… I don’t think the 160 elitist registered for both Saturday and Sunday sit and troll the MAC site, they look at the schedule and plan ahead… Few people that do miss and really want to attend get in, either people sell a spot or they simply walk up…

It is what it is, and it works…

[porkbone]

Sorry, I like to use the work elitists to get a reaction out of some who would get "offended" by this term.
I agree with what Darryl said. And besides, you've got to keep your terminology straight. Around here, an "elitist" is a person from Minnesota or Western Wisconsin who is a Milwaukee Region SCCA member and goes to out of town events, sometimes instead of going to local events. So technically, the people who registered for MOWOG1 and MOWOG2 aren't elitists. The true elitists are at the Lincoln ProSolo that weekend.

:lol:

[JCN]

I still don't see why people can't sign up at 8am the following morning. There are always still spots.

The other alternative would be to sign up for season membership and sell off the unused spots.

Please substitute the term "elitist" with "organized."

I don't see a problem.

[murph]

This is the exact problem I have. I can't troll the forums all day either, nor can I get a spot prior to the day the event opens for registration because they are already bought the by the time I would be checking and purchasing.

So, because you're not dedicated enough to plan ahead on registration, and not dedicated enough to do season registration (which rocks) you somehow want to change the registration system to work for you, the less dedicated member, at the expense of the more dedicated members. Just making sure I understand, because that sounds pretty elitist. (you think you deserve special treatment for no apparent reason)


what if all the events are open from the beginning of the year? Would there still be a mad rush? Or the better question is, would it be the mad dash into the store for the "on sale" item thats there for a limited time?

The club members with the most money would be the most likely to be able to register for all the events up front, and if you were poor at the beginning of the season, because you're still building a new car or something, you'd be out for the entire season. Also, we do allow season registration now, just not the ability to pick and choose events.

(and Charles, I don't believe season reg spots are saleable)

[Andres3165]

There's no mystery. We KNOW when registration is going to open. 30 days prior to the event at midnight. Plan ahead and it's easy to get registered.

I think the current system is fine.

Agree, Internet access changes everything, we just have to use it right. I tried to be aware of every event I want to go, but this year, I don't know how (since I really needed to participate), I missed T&T registration. My fault not the system's fault.

Andres

[fuya_inc]

I'm just as qualified as the next person at spotting logistical BS. (I still don't know how the military really works after all those years.:?)

By just greeting or chatting with people at the gate the mornings of the events one could get a pretty good feel for who is showing up to try to sell their spot and who is showing up to try to buy a spot. Last T&T there were 2(that I know of) that, unfortunately, had to bow out at the gate. Just so happens that 2 people arrived to pick up those spots.

Seems like things work smoothly with the online gig here. The time allowed between registration and the event is sufficient to plan ahead. It's also sufficient that if you have something come up in that time there usually isn't a problem finding somebody to fill the spot.
Agreed that nobody has the time to troll the forum looking for a spot.
Sometimes you just have to be lucky or more effective at spreading the word to those registered that you're looking for a spot. The open communication of the forum to post WTB or FS threads is privilege enough. Imagine if all the exchanges had to happen at the event. The seller would still have to show up to hand off their spot. It would be a rigmarole at best.

It is, after all, your responsibility to register. There seems to be a decent system in place to do so. We could be required to send registration on horseback. Then you'd have to train your horse to be faster than the other horses...plus feed the thing...and implant it with a GPS or something so it knows where to go.

There could be an issue, however, if everybody who wants to run is organized enough to get their spot right away and bog 'the system'.

[applebit]

So, because you're not dedicated enough to plan ahead on registration, and not dedicated enough to do season registration (which rocks) you somehow want to change the registration system to work for you, the less dedicated member, at the expense of the more dedicated members. Just making sure I understand, because that sounds pretty elitist. (you think you deserve special treatment for no apparent reason)

Sweet. This is the ticket I was waiting for.

Correct, I am not dedicated enough to register for the entire season. The other part (not planning ahead on registration) is where I believe the problem to be. You have to be signed up within a number of hours because registration fills up.

BTW: My word elitists is to get the kind of reaction I was hoping for. I know that people there don't actually walk around with their nose in the air (well, I hope not anyways :-)) - I am more hopeful that people would think differently about registration and how to improve on it. There is always room for improvement anywhere... well, unless your the All-Mighty himself, but I doubt that. ;-)

[applebit]

I'm not and I am...

The board and its members collectively, those who attended back in the day, made the decision to use myautoevents.com and open registration 30 days in advance… I’ve seen a few threads asking and a few complaining about registration as it is today but not one person has said it just doesn’t work, if they did they couldn’t come up with a good enough reason to change it… I don’t think the 160 elitist registered for both Saturday and Sunday sit and troll the MAC site, they look at the schedule and plan ahead… Few people that do miss and really want to attend get in, either people sell a spot or they simply walk up…

It is what it is, and it works…


Yeah, I think the myautoevents.com is a huge step in the right direction from what it was (believe me, there is a huge benefit to not having to register and do any corrections the day of).

Wouldn't it be cool if "we the people" generated thoughts (see one of mine in the previous postings) on how to even better improve it; and then our "representatives" of the club found some of those interesting and applied them to see how it works out?

Basically my above thought is open up registration for the entire year. Right now we have that. But this would allow everything to be accessible right off the bat. Would it prevent the *rush* to sign up the exact day? My initial thought would be no. And here is why:

- Everything is open from January 1 (really, whatever day the club releases this)
- People would see this and my best would be MOWOG 1 would still have that initial rush
- If there would be a rush for the other events, its supply and demand.
- When you open the store the day after thanksgiving, 1 billion people rush in to try to get 3 stupid things that were on sale
- Lose the above, have it always on the shelf - it may not get that sort of rush
- You are guaranteed as the MN Autosports club to have all spots filled before registration day closes (supply and demand - about 1xx spots and easily over 1xx people)

Now, I am not saying this absolutely will work in all of the above ways. There is no telling if it could work that way. We can look at the behavior and say its a big possibility though that it could work.

[oldtoyota]

I really don't see any problems that need fixing. To my understanding we have never turned anyone away the day of the event.

On selling spots. I want to do it easy and quickly as possible. It is not the clubs issue that I changed my mind.

[oldtoyota]

Jon, What event are you trying to go to? I have not see you post anything on the WTB or seen you at an event in years.

[ChillyW]

Wouldn't it be cool if "we the people" generated thoughts (see one of mine in the previous postings) on how to even better improve it; and then our "representatives" of the club found some of those interesting and applied them to see how it works out?


It seems to me that "we the people" get invited and encouraged to attend the club meeting every single month and speak up. I don't recall seeing any such proposal in the meeting minutes, so I'm presuming that you don't really care enough to show up to the meeting.

And it also seems to me that your idea of opening up all of the events at the beginning of the year is even more elitist than the current system. If you do that, then only the people with enough money to register for them all at once will be guaranteed spots. I could come up with $250-300 at once if I had to, but I wouldn't like it much. I'm pretty sure there are people in the club that come to every event that couldn't come up with that much money at once.

[MacLotus]

This is my rookie year and remembering to sign up 30 days in advance concerned me (as I'm a little forgetful in my older years). :rolleyes:

After seeing that MAC did offer advance sign-up for all events before the season started, that option worked well for me personally ($250). Albeit some folks may not have the funds or ability to forecast their schedules that far in advance, the option is there.

It seems that if you find you can't make an event, there are plenty of folks willing to buy the spot easily. So plan ahead responsibly and attendance is not a challenge.

As a newbie, I believe the current system works pretty good the way it is. In addition, MAC refunds are available for the 'right reasons'.

[rdyzz]

the problem i have is not with the registration itself. its more of the paying upfront. i know the reasoning for it, its just that for multiple events ahead of time say 3 events. thats $90 some of us have to save or put aside the money for the evens so we may not beat those that have the money onhand. i have been building my car all winter long and have not had the time to look at when the events start. anyways i think registration is good the way it is, but the club should leave atlest 5-10 spots for the guys that do decide to show up that day. not sure if you guys already do this. btw ive been driving the events since 2006 and love how the club operates for the most part.

[applebit]

Jon, What event are you trying to go to? I have not see you post anything on the WTB or seen you at an event in years.

Yeah, up until this year I was told that if you don't pre-register, you don't get in. I was told early this year that if you show up, you can still get in. I will tell ya though, I don't want to show up and be turned away (not as if that has happened).

I am very impressed by pre-registration - don't get me wrong on that, I just think that the impression gives people the idea that if they don't pre-register, they don't get in.

I actually would post a WTB, but I wanna run a few events with my dad in his car too. It's tough to buy one and then the other have to "hope" he gets in.

[applebit]

It seems to me that "we the people" get invited and encouraged to attend the club meeting every single month and speak up. I don't recall seeing any such proposal in the meeting minutes, so I'm presuming that you don't really care enough to show up to the meeting.

And it also seems to me that your idea of opening up all of the events at the beginning of the year is even more elitist than the current system. If you do that, then only the people with enough money to register for them all at once will be guaranteed spots. I could come up with $250-300 at once if I had to, but I wouldn't like it much. I'm pretty sure there are people in the club that come to every event that couldn't come up with that much money at once.

I'm no longer a member. It's a membership meeting. Not complaining - the reason I cannot show up are my Wednesdays is because I am already involved in other activities those nights.

Isn't opening the entire season the same as preregistering for the entire year? I'm not saying this is the end all be all solution, but a "what if"...

[Chippy569]

if you have a cell phone, you have a calendar with an alarm system built in. Go to the MAE page, enter all of the race dates, and set the alarm 30 days sooner (or make a second calendar event for registration). Then you won't forget.


The problem is that there are more people who want to participate than there are spots for the events.

[zaisaroni]

The problem is that there are more people who want to participate than there are spots for the events.

Hit the nail on the head there....

It's a demand/supply problem. There's slightly more demand for autoX than MAC can supply usually. There's no rule saying that you have to sign up within 24 hours, but everyone gets on the ball so they don't miss out. We know how popular this has become, and the core group of us here has spent good amounts of time and money getting their vehicles ready for this sport, best not to let that go to waste because you couldn't make it.

There is a way to get spots earlier, buy a season registration. If you can make it to everyone, then it's the best alternative by far. If you want individual races due to scheduling, vacation, etc then you have to sign up when it's available.

Last year was my first year, I was able to get into the first novice school, and any event I wanted to. A couple I missed registration on, but was able to get a spot every single time.

[rdyzz]

since there are more people who wants to go to an event is there any other clubs you guys know of in this state that would run the same schedule as you guys do? i recall seeing some of the mac guys at other events when mac doesnt have any.

i think it might have changed but does there have to be a spot for sell in order to get in if you show up on the day of the event or can you just show up? (this question i mainly ask due to fixing up the car most the winter and not having time to surf the net, prob preregister in the future) it would be a big waste of time not get a spot if you just showed up without preregister. in the past i remember that if you showed up you do get a spot (past as in 2006-2007). i also understand very well the too much people not as much run thing also. this is why im wondering if theres another club.

[MacLotus]

the problem i have is not with the registration itself. its more of the paying upfront.

This has been.... and always will be a characteristic of the sport. Unfortunately, there is only so much room on any race track (BIR included) supporting only so many cars/drivers. The track usually wants the money up front too.

With all these events, if folks were NOT required to pay up front and have their initial investment $ 'on the line', they would be inclined to sign up for everything and decide at the last minute to attend or opt out due to the weather or family plans (because no $ are at stake)... thus displacing someone who could have made it (and the $ associated with their attendance). That would leave non-profit event organizers with the responsibility to pick up the tab for no-shows because the overall track rental fee doesn't change. I'm sure you understand.

Personally, I know I really wanted to buy a set of slicks for my car this past winter, but if I had spent the $ on them, I wouldn't have been able to pay for the season up front. I had to prioritize. I'm disappointed I'll be on street tires this season, but I'll be there.

I certainly understand your dilemma, but as I said... that's the nature of this sport. We're all car-poor and all of us want that next performance part... but not at the expense of missing the fun. Hope we see you there having fun and competing!

[applebit]

Well, whatever does happen I can tell ya this - the Minnesota Autosports Club has a bunch of people putting a lot of time and effort into the club and might figure out if there is a way to accommodate for those that don't fit the regular mold.

And if not, well then - I guess those who don't fit will have to adjust or find an alternative.

[MacLotus]

I think its great that this club is 'open to' and 'attracts' folks from many socio-economic backgrounds to participate an the activity we all share a passion for. And while I'm a current MAC member, I don't 'officially' speak for the club itself, but here's my thought on what I'm hearing being asked by a few here...

"Can MAC accommodate those of us who either don't have the time, foresight or money to pre-register by having spots reserved for us on the day of the event (over those who do have the money and time to pre-register) in the case where we MIGHT be able to attend/pay the day of the event?"

If I were trying to pre-register/pre-pay for an event and I was told 'No' because there were 'maybe attendee spots' being held for 'time and/or financially challenged' non-MAC members, I would be extremely disappointed thinking 'This is my club event, not a charity event'.

Personally, I don't think that its a fair request to ask MAC to take on that risk/effort. If folks don't show for those spots, who pays for them, us MAC members?? Someone has to.

I believe members in good standing and the money in advance should be given priority access to MAC events, followed by non-members with the money in advance. Anyone else takes their chances the day of the event. Just my humble opinion (but then again, that's the way it's currently run and it works great)

[G. Jay]

since there are more people who wants to go to an event is there any other clubs you guys know of in this state that would run the same schedule as you guys do? i recall seeing some of the mac guys at other events when mac doesnt have any.

There are other clubs with events locally, or at least semi-locally. PCA/COM run an event at DCTC on May 24. CVSCC and LOL region of SCCA also run events within a short drive. Consult the Met Council calender.

http://www.met-council.org/calendar.html



i think it might have changed but does there have to be a spot for sell in order to get in if you show up on the day of the event or can you just show up? (this question i mainly ask due to fixing up the car most the winter and not having time to surf the net, prob preregister in the future) it would be a big waste of time not get a spot if you just showed up without preregister. in the past i remember that if you showed up you do get a spot (past as in 2006-2007). i also understand very well the too much people not as much run thing also. this is why im wondering if theres another club.

There is a wait list started at the opening of registration on the day of the event. There are almost always some no-show's and people get in this way. Remember that season pass owners can't sell their spot so if they don't make it to an event there is a vacancy. There is no promise but if you really want in and you can't find one to buy it is worth a shot. Get there early and you'll have a good chance.

Good luck and see you there.;)

[Amy]

Not that it really matters, but I didn't see any fine print that indicated that rule? Where is that written and agreed to?

This thread states that spots cannot be transferred for those that register for the entire season in advance: http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10904

[JCN]

Reading comprehension pwns me. I'm totally okay with the nonsale of season memberships. But the cost of the season membership is the sum of the individual events. I wonder why the spot is nontransferable, though? I'm sure there was discussion at some point about it. Can someone fill me in?

[JCN]

Well, whatever does happen I can tell ya this - the Minnesota Autosports Club has a bunch of people putting a lot of time and effort into the club and might figure out if there is a way to accommodate for those that don't fit the regular mold.

And if not, well then - I guess those who don't fit will have to adjust or find an alternative.

Let's just throw this thread in the Political forum where it's degenerating to.

You're asking the "citizens" of MAC to take up the slack for the people who don't put the time and effort into contributing to the club or plan their own schedules ahead of time. You're asking us to "take care of" and make concessions for people who choose not to put in the effort that we do. You're asking us to be Socialist? :evil: I would have thought you'd have wanted the complete opposite and NOT want us to accomodate those that didn't fit the regular mold by choice and lack of effort.

[applebit]

Let's just throw this thread in the Political forum where it's degenerating to.

You're asking the "citizens" of MAC to take up the slack for the people who don't put the time and effort into contributing to the club or plan their own schedules ahead of time. You're asking us to "take care of" and make concessions for people who choose not to put in the effort that we do. You're asking us to be Socialist? :evil: I would have thought you'd have wanted the complete opposite and NOT want us to accomodate those that didn't fit the regular mold by choice and lack of effort.

whoa whoa whoa! My comment is meant to commend the board for their work! Not to degrade anyone!

[G. Jay]

Reading comprehension pwns me. I'm totally okay with the nonsale of season memberships. But the cost of the season membership is the sum of the individual events. I wonder why the spot is nontransferable, though? I'm sure there was discussion at some point about it. Can someone fill me in?

It did come up. Steve can chime in here but I believe the reason is that people would buy the season and then just sell the ones they don't want. This would greatly expand the current secondary market which is undesirable and a move toward elitism.

[MacLotus]

Well, whatever does happen I can tell ya this - the Minnesota Autosports Club has a bunch of people putting a lot of time and effort into the club and might figure out if there is a way to accommodate for those that don't fit the regular mold.

And if not, well then - I guess those who don't fit will have to adjust or find an alternative.

Are "those that don't fit the regular mold" non-MAC members lacking event funds in advance? I would think those types are not the 'target demographic' for professionally planned and well-run MAC events.

Perhaps these folks might consider a Circuit City parking lot on a sunny afternoon? No need to pre-register or pay? BYOC (Bring your own cones).

[zaisaroni]

MAE also has a HUGE benefit of giving us data files that are directly imported into our timing software. Everyone signs up on MAE, their information is saved already and means the driver doesn't have to fill out a form everytime... Then the system builds the necessary files of all registration data needed, to import into AXware.

Registering only at the event means many more people working registration and entering data. Entrants have to get there sooner to ensure a spot in line near the front.

EDIT:
I've only been around a year, but IMO there's nothing inherently broken in the registration system, no common problem that gets brought up a lot.

[CDeutsch]

Until we regularly start turning people way the morning of an event I think we can table this discussion.

[JCN]

It did come up. Steve can chime in here but I believe the reason is that people would buy the season and then just sell the ones they don't want. This would greatly expand the current secondary market which is undesirable and a move toward elitism.

Thinking about that point, I get it and agree. If there was no "penalty" then 40 people could wind up doing the season registration and then control the secondary market.

[wedge]

I hope that I can come play with you all, I'm interested in the Saturday May 2nd date if anyone is not able to make it.

Let me know, Thanks

[washburn]

I hope that I can come play with you all, I'm interested in the Saturday May 2nd date if anyone is not able to make it.

Let me know, Thanks

Your 'wanted' ad might be more visible in the For Sale section instead of tagged to the end of this thread...that's where most people do the trading. :)

[JCN]

John (wedge) was scheduled to co-drive with me for MOWOG #1 in Jocelin's place. But if there is a hard and fast rule about "non-transferable" season spots, then he's going to show up early to get on the waitlist.

Could we make an exception, just this once... pretty please? :oops: I should have read the "fine print" better.

[porkbone]

Until we EVER start turning people way the morning of an event I think we can table this discussion.

Fixed that for you.

This debate is so tired, we have it every year.

[Darryl]

Well, whatever does happen I can tell ya this - the Minnesota Autosports Club has a bunch of people putting a lot of time and effort into the club and might figure out if there is a way to accommodate for those that don't fit the regular mold.

And if not, well then - I guess those who don't fit will have to adjust or find an alternative.

Regular mold... Can you define “fit the mold”… I’ve met and know more then half the people running at MAC events… I’d say none of them are any different then you, just good old interested in the sport of autoX… Come out and attend some events and someone will listen to you... Yes, you ARE under my skin... Why, because you come from nowhere, online, and say our system sucks or doesn’t fit your needs… I really don't think you have much interest in the sport anymore and you haven't for years... MAC was great back in the day, that’s 6 years for me… I’ve been told by many older members it been great going back to the late 60’s… And it was great when you were involved…

Again, get out and get involved…

[MacLotus]

I believe members in good standing and the money in advance should be given priority access to MAC events, followed by non-members with the money in advance. Anyone else takes their chances the day of the event.

I'm just curious... and I understand the current process has been streamlined through years of experience, but how about priority access to events for MAC members in good standing?

Example: 30 Days prior, MAC members can register for an event. 15 Days prior, non-MAC members can register.

I elected to purchase the 'season pass' because it seemed the only way to gain priority access to the events. In order to do this, I had to join MAC and pay my dues. No big deal. After all, there are benefits associated with club membership.

Like JCN, I didn't read the 'fine print' about selling season spots. Not the end of the world, but kind of a harsh rule for well-intended members. Maybe a limit could be put on sales of these spots (say 2 sold spots).

Wouldn't 'value-added' benefits of this nature promote club membership (and/or recruitment)? Just a thought.

[oldtoyota]

I elected to purchase the 'season pass' because it seemed the only way to gain priority access to the events. In order to do this, I had to join MAC and pay my dues. No big deal. After all, there are benefits associated with club membership.

Like JCN, I didn't read the 'fine print' about selling season spots. Not the end of the world, but kind of a harsh rule for well-intended members. Maybe a limit could be put on sales of these spots (say 2 sold spots).

Wouldn't 'value-added' benefits of this nature promote club membership (and/or recruitment)? Just a thought.

Sounds like something to bring up at the end of the season. I never liked the idea of changing things on the fly. I honestly would rather see a partial season pass then what you mentioned with picking your events done in by the end of March. In the end it is more to manage so am fine with keeping it the way it is. The current system works.

[applebit]

Regular mold... Can you define “fit the mold”… I’ve met and know more then half the people running at MAC events… I’d say none of them are any different then you, just good old interested in the sport of autoX… Come out and attend some events and someone will listen to you... Yes, you ARE under my skin... Why, because you come from nowhere, online, and say our system sucks or doesn’t fit your needs… I really don't think you have much interest in the sport anymore and you haven't for years... MAC was great back in the day, that’s 6 years for me… I’ve been told by many older members it been great going back to the late 60’s… And it was great when you were involved…

Again, get out and get involved…

Again - My complement was written to praise the board for such good work.

[applebit]

Tell ya what, I'm going to elaborate, since there obviously has been some misreading to the above statement:

I really think the board and people have been doing a great job building MAC and working out new systems to optimize everything. They spend hours outside of events figuring out how to make things better. I obviously cannot anymore as my life schedules have changed and want to recognize that they are trying to figure out different approaches all the time to making things better.

Someone that might fit the regular mold are those who cannot guarantee they can get to an event until possibly a week before. Sure, there are even different people who may not fit the qualifications to register either.

Of course, I am not able to go either day this weekend - and I would LOVE to. But I have different plans that cannot be altered.

[MNbiker]

I'm just curious... and I understand the current process has been streamlined through years of experience, but how about priority access to events for MAC members in good standing?

Example: 30 Days prior, MAC members can register for an event. 15 Days prior, non-MAC members can register.

That one won't fly for a couple reasons:

1. The online registration system has no automated means to allow only members to register, and there's no way we're going back to manual registration.

2. The vast majority of drivers attending MAC events are members by mid-season, due to the event cost advantages afforded by club membership.

[MNbiker]

Sounds like something to bring up at the end of the season. I never liked the idea of changing things on the fly. I honestly would rather see a partial season pass then what you mentioned with picking your events done in by the end of March. In the end it is more to manage so am fine with keeping it the way it is. The current system works.
Interesting idea. We might be able to do something like this for the 2010 season.

[applebit]

That one won't fly for a couple reasons:

1. The online registration system has no automated means to allow only members to register, and there's no way we're going back to manual registration.

2. The vast majority of drivers attending MAC events are members by mid-season, due to the event cost advantages afforded by club membership.

3. That would eliminate the sport from growing (and if your not growing, your shrinking)

I love the idea of "member only" days though. Now thats a benefit - first you narrow the field greatly, second, gives you more time out there to play. Of course this could not be for season points as that would give members an unfair advantage.

[Chippy569]

3. That would eliminate the sport from growing (and if your not growing, your shrinking)

I love the idea of "member only" days though. Now thats a benefit - first you narrow the field greatly, second, gives you more time out there to play. Of course this could not be for season points as that would give members an unfair advantage.
We already have the members-only Test & Tune days, don't we?

[MacLotus]

Sounds like something to bring up at the end of the season. I never liked the idea of changing things on the fly. I honestly would rather see a partial season pass then what you mentioned with picking your events done in by the end of March. In the end it is more to manage so am fine with keeping it the way it is. The current system works.

I'm not proposing any mid-season changes as that promotes confusion and chaos. I'm also fine not being able to sell my spot if something comes up. After all, those are the rules.

The point I was trying to drive home is that MAC members in good standing should receive 'tangible' club benefits (to include a pre-registration period before non-MAC members). Advance season registration is a good club benefit, but the 'no sell' rule diminishes it somewhat... but I can live with that.

But why not apply a MAC member pre-registration period to individual events too. That wouldn't have to wait. Let us register 40 days in advance of the general public. I bet we would see a membership boost... eh?

I acknowledge MAC members receive a small token discount, but personally I'd MUCH rather have advance registration privileges that eliminate the need to go on-line at 12:01am 30 days in advance. $5 more to sleep in... I'll pay it... but it should be a member benefit.

I don't mind $30 a year dues, but I'm still trying to quantify/measure the tangible return of club membership. Please don't get me wrong. I'm NOT complaining... only trying to send the message that MAC members should have PRIORITY at all MAC events over the general public. You all have done a great job managing these events and I'm thankful for your efforts.

Thanks for listening.

KM

[applebit]

We already have the members-only Test & Tune days, don't we?

Yuppers!

[applebit]

I'm not proposing any mid-season changes as that promotes confusion and chaos. I'm also fine not being able to sell my spot if something comes up. After all, those are the rules.

The point I was trying to drive home is that MAC members in good standing should receive 'tangible' club benefits (to include a pre-registration period before non-MAC members). Advance season registration is a good club benefit, but the 'no sell' rule diminishes it somewhat... but I can live with that.

But why not apply a MAC member pre-registration period to individual events too. That wouldn't have to wait. Let us register 40 days in advance of the general public. I bet we would see a membership boost... eh?

I acknowledge MAC members receive a small token discount, but personally I'd MUCH rather have advance registration privileges that eliminate the need to go on-line at 12:01am 30 days in advance. $5 more to sleep in... I'll pay it... but it should be a member benefit.

I don't mind $30 a year dues, but I'm still trying to quantify/measure the tangible return of club membership. Please don't get me wrong. I'm NOT complaining... only trying to send the message that MAC members should have PRIORITY at all MAC events over the general public. You all have done a great job managing these events and I'm thankful for your efforts.

Thanks for listening.

KM

Well, how about this: (also not saying its perfect- but an interesting concept if I do say so myself)

40 days before opening the cost is $xx + $x

And then at the 30 day mark the cost is just $xx

(I know, that then brings in the elitist question again, ugh, you can never win)

[porkbone]

Rhetorical question: How about we just find a big enough site to meet our local needs? If we had a site big as Canterbury (or larger) that we could use all year, we wouldn't have the entry caps we have today. This whole thing is a supply and demand problem. Unfortunately with our limited site selection here locally, we are short on supply. Which is why this comes up every year.

Anyone who wants more seat time needs to plan ahead (sort of like buying tickets to a concert you really want to go to...) or make the commitment and drive a little while. Go to Lacrosse (SCCLAC) for example, it's not too far away and they have events that never fill up.

[MacLotus]

That one won't fly for a couple reasons:

1. The online registration system has no automated means to allow only members to register, and there's no way we're going back to manual registration.

2. The vast majority of drivers attending MAC events are members by mid-season, due to the event cost advantages afforded by club membership.

I understand what you're saying, but it would appear that there IS a pre-registration process already implemented/possible. After all, I'm signed up for all the events. Sending a check for individual events by a deadline is not objectionable to me personally.

I'm not trying to make things difficult... only asking questions to better appreciate the value of club membership. My experience with other local clubs was membership granted me pre-registration benefits before non-members, so maybe I'm just spoiled.

Lastly, I really have no idea about the ratio/percentage of MAC members to non-members at these events. Maybe this is a moot issue if most entrants are members. Currently the system is good and works for me, but there are areas for potential improvement to make it great.

Again, thanks for your consideration.

[MNbiker]

But why not apply a MAC member pre-registration period to individual events too. That wouldn't have to wait. Let us register 40 days in advance of the general public. I bet we would see a membership boost... eh?
Per my original response, our online registration system dosn't support this (and I'm not aware of a viable alternative that does).

By mid-season, we have 150+ club members, so the vast majority of drivers at any given event are members.

[MacLotus]

Well, how about this: (also not saying its perfect- but an interesting concept if I do say so myself)

40 days before opening the cost is $xx + $x

And then at the 30 day mark the cost is just $xx

(I know, that then brings in the elitist question again, ugh, you can never win)

Money shouldn't dictate attendance... period. That would be wrong.

Membership should get priority over the general public for individual events though. That would be right.

All members are equal.

[MacLotus]

Per my original response, our online registration system dosn't support this (and I'm not aware of a viable alternative that does).

It would appear an administrator has access for 'season passes'. Wouldn't that process work the same??


By mid-season, we have 150+ club members, so the vast majority of drivers at any given event are members.

"By mid-season"? So some folks are not timely with renewing their annual membership dues? Just curious... Does that create more work and/or hardship for the club and could that time be better spent pre-registering members?

I'm not trying trying to be a 'hard a$$', but rather just trying to better get to know my club and its leadership. Thanks for your understanding.

Ken

[Andrew]

Membership should get priority over the general public for individual events though. That would be right.

All members are equal.

I don't think so, this would hinder a newbies ability to join the sport and attain that "good standing". I'd be worried that at some point we have enough good standing members to fill an event before newbies get the chance.

The benefit of being a member is gained through lower entry cost, exclusive t&t, and having a voice at club meetings.

There is a meeting coming up btw for anyone with a voice on this issue.

I also think that the ability to sell seasonpass registration spots encourages registration squatting.

[applebit]

Money shouldn't dictate attendance... period. That would be wrong.

Membership should get priority over the general public for individual events though. That would be right.

All members are equal.

yeah, I agree. I am shooting it out there to hopefully generate other thoughts. I learned a long time ago that if you are generating thoughts among people, share everything as this may help assist on another thought process.

Yeah, even though I'm not a member, I would say members *should* have higher priority. Too bad the system cannot open to members on >x< day and after either so many days or % filled open to the rest.

[JCN]

Why are we trying to make things more difficult?

If your schedule doesn't allow you to plan ahead 30 days in advance:
1. Register anyway and sell your spot if you can't go.
2. Show up early the morning of the event.

Applebit, why are you trying to create a "policy" for a club you don't participate in... to serve the purposes of a subset of people that already have viable opportunities?

914Dave and I have kicked around the following proposal for the season registration:

PROPOSAL: Spots may be transferable if willing to make a supplemental donation to the Paul Fund. That would prevent people from purchasing season memberships for the purpose of selling off unused spots.

I encourage anyone who wants to discuss any of these topics further to come to the MAC membership meeting THIS WEDNESDAY.

[MacLotus]

I'd be worried that at some point we have enough good standing members to fill an event before newbies get the chance.

So you perceive a 'real danger' in the club getting too many members that might displace the general public? I say "Join the Club!" (no pun intended). All members are equal. Too many members? How about more events (vs. bigger ones that limit laps).


The benefit of being a member is gained through lower entry cost, exclusive t&t, and having a voice at club meetings.

Lower entry cost is pretty much offset by membership dues... no? I don't mean to split hairs, but the money is not the issue for me personally. It's about a non-member having equal access to my club events I have an issue with. JMHO.

[JCN]

I'm not trying trying to be a 'hard a$$', but rather just trying to better get to know my club and its leadership. Thanks for your understanding.

Ken

In my experience, MAC is very egalitarian. It doesn't treat members and non-members differently except for Test and Tunes. The only difference functionally between a member and non-member is financial. I like it that way. I feel that it is one of the reasons MAC feels like such an open and welcoming club. Kenny, you're a MAC "member" because you care about autosport and want to contribute, not because you paid $30.

[MacLotus]

Why are we trying to make things more difficult?

If your schedule doesn't allow you to plan ahead 30 days in advance:
1. Register anyway and sell your spot if you can't go.
2. Show up early the morning of the event.

Applebit, why are you trying to create a "policy" for a club you don't participate in... to serve the purposes of a subset of people that already have viable opportunities?

914Dave and I have kicked around the following proposal for the season registration:

PROPOSAL: Spots may be transferable if willing to make a supplemental donation to the Paul Fund. That would prevent people from purchasing season memberships for the purpose of selling off unused spots.

I encourage anyone who wants to discuss any of these topics further to come to the MAC membership meeting THIS WEDNESDAY.

I don't have an issue with non-refundable spots. Your proposal could be beneficial, but its not my hot button.

Equal access for non-members is. The general public should only be allowed to fill the remaining spots not paid for by members.

OK, I've beat this to death. You understand my perspective.

Thanks again.

[oldtoyota]

914Dave and I have kicked around the following proposal for the season registration:

PROPOSAL: Spots may be transferable if willing to make a supplemental donation to the Paul Fund. That would prevent people from purchasing season memberships for the purpose of selling off unused spots.

I encourage anyone who wants to discuss any of these topics further to come to the MAC membership meeting THIS WEDNESDAY.

I'm not going to go be around for the meeting.

How about we just make it an admin fee equal to the cost of the event? That way you still get to keep your spot, but can transfer it to another party. The club can always donate money to Paul's fund at the end of the year.

[austinpike]

It's about a non-member having equal access to my club events I have an issue with. JMHO.You make it sound like the general public is somehow leeching off the hard work of the members. Anybody who sends in 30 bucks can be a member. It isn't like there was some initiation or training ritual involved. I really don't see the point on getting hung up on the difference.

[Amy]

PROPOSAL: Spots may be transferable if willing to make a supplemental donation to the Paul Fund. That would prevent people from purchasing season memberships for the purpose of selling off unused spots.

I think if we tried this, the events would fill up even sooner and only create more problems for those members who cannot plan their entire season ahead of time, either for scheduling or financial reasons.

[MNbiker]

I'm not going to go be around for the meeting.

How about we just make it an admin fee equal to the cost of the event? That way you still get to keep your spot, but can transfer it to another party. The club can always donate money to Paul's fund at the end of the year.
One other bit of complexity to take into account is that only club members can buy full-season registration. What happens if a member sells an event registration to a non-member?


Just to set realistic expectations, everyone needs to understand that full-season registration is a completely manual process. It was purposely structured with a number of restrictions (including no refunds or transfers) to keep the numbers small. The full-season program was conceived purely as a convenience for core active members who plan to attend all events.

I can see where tweaking the program, allowing members to pre-select a package of events still fits the original intent. We would still be providing a service to a small group of core members. However, I would be VERY reluctant to expand the program too much, as a cardinal rule for volunteer organizations is "don't knowingly create more volunteer work, unless you have a very good reason for doing so".

[JCN]

Equal access for non-members is. The general public should only be allowed to fill the remaining spots not paid for by members.

OK, I've beat this to death. You understand my perspective.

Thanks again.

Yes, but you're still not getting it. In my book, YOU are the general public even though you've paid your $30 "membership" fee. The guys/gals who ran in the Novice school, loved it, have a fire in their bellies and are totally hooked... they're "members of our club" even though they haven't paid their $30.

And that's the point. "Official membership" is just a financial designation, not a real club membership. And that's what makes our club so strong. The commitment to one another and the bond between people that want to spend time together.

Kenny, our events sell out in ~24 hours. An almost identical event (PCA/COM) only has 50 spots sold after a week of being open for registration. People don't come for the events themselves, they come for the people.

$30 doesn't buy you real membership into our club. Giving the shirt off your back while smiling and helping out the other people at an event... THAT's a MAC member in my book.

Off topic: All the people at Novice School slogging around in the cold rain, there to help each other... THAT's the spirit of MAC and I think a good part of what is hooking the new people. We're popular because we're a great club. "Official membership" is very different than really being a member of the club.

[JCN]

I think if we tried this, the events would fill up even sooner and only create more problems for those members who cannot plan their entire season ahead of time, either for scheduling or financial reasons.

Maybe, or maybe not. I think that the people willing to sell their spots at a financial loss would be uncommon. The people willing to do so would probably be the people already signed up within the first 24 hours anyway.

There are ways around that, though. Like limiting the number of season regs to a number similar to this year's volume (like 15% of event spots).

I'm not pushing very hard either way, though. It was my bad for not reading the fine print.

[MacLotus]

You make it sound like the general public is somehow leeching off the hard work of the members. Anybody who sends in 30 bucks can be a member. It isn't like there was some initiation or training ritual involved. I really don't see the point on getting hung up on the difference.

Because additional member funds promote more events and provide additional club structure to manage club support mechanisms. In short, dues/revenue improve the club experience for members. I've seen several posts indicating 'We don't have the time or revenue to implement that.' (which is understandable). Member dues help improve the process for members.

The $30 is not a donation, or a contribution to a 501-13C Non profit charity. It's a membership... and its open to everyone. Don't want to join... don't, but don't feel discriminated against just because you choose not to support the club. The club should be for its members... right, or technically... its not a club.

Leeching... no, but equal rights as members... no. I hope you see value in membership and join. I do.

[MacLotus]

"Official membership" is just a financial designation, not a real club membership.

Now I get it... and that's fine. I can appreciate hanging with friends and having fun. I thought it was a membership. My mistake.

I just wanted to know what it was and that pretty much clears it up. Thanks.

[MacLotus]

Reminds me of an old joke...

After his untimely death, a man gets to choose between heaven and hell. After touring the blissfulness of heaven and its beautiful harp strings, the devil show's him Hell's pool hall, with flowing beer, dancing and the party of your life.

After considering his choices carefully, he tells St. Peter that while heaven is beautiful, he's more of a 'beer & pool' guy. Understanding his decision, the elevator appears as the devil escorts him to Hell. As the doors open, there's fire and heat, pain & suffering, and eternal damnation.

The man says to the devil. "What about all the dancing... and beer... and pool tables?"

The devil said "Yesterday you were a prospective member. Today your a customer." :)



Oh com'n... we needed the levity here..... but you see my point. :rolleyes:

[austinpike]

I've seen several posts indicating 'We don't have the time or revenue to implement that.' ...I hope you see value in membership and join. I do. For the record, this will be my 5th year of membership. The club is a bargain, and I would gladly pay more if it meant updated equipment or whatever the club needs to run smoothly. (sounds like we got some of that this year. :) ) Clicking a Paypal link is easy, I wish I had more time to volunteer and be the kind of member JCN is talking about.

[phile]

I wonder why the spot is nontransferable, though? I'm sure there was discussion at some point about it. Can someone fill me in?

Logistics. The advantage to the club in offering season-long preregistration is that once we get the info entered into the MAE computer we don't have to ding around with it again. Allowing sublets of all-season registration opens up more administrative screwing around, before the event, during the event, or both. The upfront fee sure helps our cash-flow, also. We need to pay upfront for insurance and the like.

If we allowed sublets on season preregistration, it would attract folks who had no intention of making all the events, thus adding to our administrative hassles of updating for all those sublets.

Preregistration is part of the grand master plan to move administrative hassles away from the day of event.

From the administrative standpoint, our favorite entrant is the one who has a Met Council permanent number, preregisters with MAE and shows up the day of event with no changes. Our administrative hassle with this entrant on the day of event is virtually zero. He shows up at the Registration table, confirms there are no changes from preregistration, shows his driver license and we are done. All the info is already loaded in the timing computer.

From the administrative standpoint, our unfavorite entrant is the one who shows up three minutes before Registration closes, has not preregistered, has no permanent number and has to pick one from the list. All this data entry has to be done on the spot. This is a pain. This one guy causes more administrative hassle on event day than all the preregistered-with-numbers entrants combined.

We could bag preregistration and start out completely fresh on event day. Just subtract about two hours from the time available to actually run cars and expect more errors.

[JCN]

Reminds me of an old joke...

After his untimely death, a man gets to choose between heaven and hell. After touring the blissfulness of heaven and its beautiful harp strings, the devil show's him Hell's pool hall, with flowing beer, dancing and the party of your life.

After considering his choices carefully, he tells St. Peter that while heaven is beautiful, he's more of a 'beer & pool' guy. Understanding his decision, the elevator appears as the devil escorts him to Hell. As the doors open, there's fire and heat, pain & suffering, and eternal damnation.

The man says to the devil. "What about all the dancing... and beer... and pool tables?"

The devil said "Yesterday you were a prospective member. Today your a customer." :)



Oh com'n... we needed the levity here..... but you see my point. :rolleyes:


I'm guessing that man "didn't read the fine print" of his contract, either. :evil:

Kenny, you have an awful lot of preconceived notions of "membership" about a club you've never attended an event with. ;)

In terms of the way the club actually functions, I also want to put the disclaimer out there that mnautox.com is NOT a complete representation of MAC. There are many core members that function in vital roles that don't post here on a regular basis. You're just getting the "feel" of a club from 20% of the most vocal members who spend significant amounts of time on the internet. Perhaps see what the club's really about before trying to assume what "membership" means?

[MacLotus]

I'm guessing that man "didn't read the fine print" of his contract, either. :evil:

Kenny, you have an awful lot of preconceived notions of "membership" about a club you've never attended an event with. ;)

In terms of the way the club actually functions, I also want to put the disclaimer out there that mnautox.com is NOT a complete representation of MAC. There are many core members that function in vital roles that don't post here on a regular basis. You're just getting the "feel" of a club from 20% of the most vocal members who spend significant amounts of time on the internet. Perhaps see what the club's really about before trying to assume what "membership" means?

As a new member (using the term loosely), all I've tried to do here is ask questions and give my opinions to what I think is fair when charging for a 'so called' membership. I was VERY clear I was not officially speaking for the club.

To me, 'membership' seemed implied by writing a $30 check. It's obvious you view membership as an 'earned' status (or a core member as you describe), and the $30 as a charitable donation. That's OK. You're entitled to your opinion too.

At this point I can't really tell if you officially speak for MAC regarding the definition of 'membership'... or just a seasoned member with an opinion, same as me. Either way, your loyalty to MAC and its members seems unquestioned, but the resounding message I heard from you is...

"No REAL need to pay $30 dues each year. We love you all the same, so no need to officially join the club financially. Just come out, help out with the event, and have fun."

That's cool, but would others in leadership agree with that? I'm just trying to get a lay of the land here so I can manage my expectations. That's all. No worries or offenses.

Cheers.

[CDeutsch]

"No REAL need to pay $30 dues each year. We love you all the same, so no need to officially join the club financially. Just come out, help out with the event, and have fun."


If you went to every event during the year as a non-member you'd actually be contributing more financially to the club then a member. ;)

[JCN]

To me, 'membership' seemed implied by writing a $30 check. It's obvious you view membership as an 'earned' status (or a core member as you describe), and the $30 as a charitable donation. That's OK. You're entitled to your opinion too.

At this point I can't really tell if you officially speak for MAC regarding the definition of 'membership'... or just a seasoned member with an opinion, same as me. Either way, your loyalty to MAC and its members seems unquestioned, but the resounding message I heard from you is...

"No REAL need to pay $30 dues each year. We love you all the same, so no need to officially join the club financially. Just come out, help out with the event, and have fun."

That's cool, but would others in leadership agree with that? I'm just trying to get a lay of the land here so I can manage my expectations. That's all. No worries or offenses.

Cheers.

I don't speak for MAC. Just myself. That is my best estimation of how core MAC members view the difference between "official paying member" vs. "nonmember."

I don't think the $30 is a "charitable donation." If you run "x" number of events or if you'd like to attend a Test and Tune, then the $30 membership "buys you" reduced entry fees (paying for itself) and allows you eligibility.

I don't know of anyone who purchased the $30 membership and didn't run ANY events. That would be a charitable donation.

The things you "expected" for your membership dollars is what we offer to all comers, IMHO.

You signed up for the Test and Tune, so that's part of what your membership allowed you to do. Where's the "charity" in that? Where are you doing us a favor? :?

[JCN]

Jeff Cashmore from Milwaukee SCCA had an interesting comment at the Milwaukee Driver's school a few weeks ago.

He said, "In this environment of consumerism, there is a danger of 'what does my entry fee buy ME.' There's no room for entitlement here, we're a club and we're not getting paid to do what we do."

[G. Jay]

I think if we tried this, the events would fill up even sooner and only create more problems for those members who cannot plan their entire season ahead of time, either for scheduling or financial reasons.

+1 You would have members deciding who gets the open spots rather than MAE. Maybe partial season packages make sense but I'm not so sure I'd change anything regarding pre-registration and certainly not prior to next season. Having a larger number of the spots pre-sold and then either needing to be re-sold taken by a waitlisted hopeful sounds counterproductive. Partial season packages may reduce this though.

With the current system there is a minimumum of difference between who show's and who is registered and I think that is for the best.

[MacLotus]

I don't speak for MAC. Just myself. That is my best estimation of how core MAC members view the difference between "official paying member" vs. "nonmember."

I don't think the $30 is a "charitable donation." If you run "x" number of events or if you'd like to attend a Test and Tune, then the $30 membership "buys you" reduced entry fees (paying for itself) and allows you eligibility.

I don't know of anyone who purchased the $30 membership and didn't run ANY events. That would be a charitable donation.

The things you "expected" for your membership dollars is what we offer to all comers, IMHO.

You signed up for the Test and Tune, so that's part of what your membership allowed you to do. Where's the "charity" in that? Where are you doing us a favor? :?

I'm not questioning the 'value' of membership. That's subjective and decided by individuals considering paying dues. Personally, the $30 is worth the benefits delivered, so I'm a very happy member (should I use that term loosely?).

You seemed to indicate that there are two separate types (or classes) of members, 'financial members/supporters' and 'core members', which IMHO seems somewhat condescending and belittling, as though new financial members aren't valued by MAC. You got to earn your stripes before your valued.

In summary, the "CLUB" already supports a 'priority pre-registration' for members indicating they value 'PARTICIPATING' members over non-members. That's already demonstrated with the Season Registration Pass. I just simply made the point that that same value might be extended to individual events, but I understand if its no logistically feasible.

Only from you have I sensed the rules were based on ideological values of fairness vs. logistical reasoning, and that no differentiation should be made between members and non-members. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

[MacLotus]

Jeff Cashmore from Milwaukee SCCA had an interesting comment at the Milwaukee Driver's school a few weeks ago.

He said, "In this environment of consumerism, there is a danger of 'what does my entry fee buy ME.' There's no room for entitlement here, we're a club and we're not getting paid to do what we do."

I don't think its wrong to ask what my membership $ are getting me. I'm not talking about entry fees. There's a difference.

[washburn]

Again - My complement was written to praise the board for such good work.


Jon,

It sure does not come across that way. Here's my take:

Opening up registation for all events for the year at once. I personally feel this will not help the situation. I will have to register for them all. I may not make them all because it's too early in the year for me to know....I have not seen the other schedules yet. So here I am, stuck *having* to enter them all just in case. I believe they would all sell out in the same manner as now, just sooner. There is not "fire sale" as you suggest, there are simply not enough spots to go around all the time. In fact the "fire sale" aspect of this would be, well....inflamed. It would cost me a bunch of money all up front, and now I have to deal with selling the spots I don't need later when I figure out my schedule later. This will INCREASE the selling of spots, and make things much harder. I think it's good you offered a possible solution, but that's my take on what would happen.


Soapbox comments edited out because they weren't helpful to the discussion.

[MNbiker]

A little too much over-analysis going on, in my opinion. No, Charles doesn't speak for the club in an official capacity - although we're not too concerned with an "official company line". After all, this is a 100% volunteer organization, so the culture of MAC is largely determined by those members who volunteer their time & energy to keep the club going.

Anyone who pays their $30 is considered a member of the club. For that $30, members receive two direct benefits:
1. Reduced entry costs for a majority of events.
2. Access to members-only Test & Tune events.

In return, the club receives somewhat improved cash flow, as we collect most membership dues early in the season.

Charles lost me a bit, when he tried to re-define the term "member". I believe what he's trying to say is that there's a difference between members and active volunteers. Out of MAC's 150 or so active members, there's a core of 30-40 members who volunteer for event positions and/or show up at monthly meetings. These core members are the ones who largely keep our club running.

The Internet has added an interesting dynamic to the equation. Because of this forum, MAC has developed a far more active & far-reaching social community than many/most similar clubs. For the most part, the most active posters on mnautox.com are the same core volunteers mentioned above. However, there are also a number of individuals who are active on mnautox.com, but don't regularly (or ever) participate in MAC driving events. Normally, that isn't an issue, as mnautox.com is a social community with it's own life. However, as Charles intimated, newcomers can occasionally get a skewed perspective from online-only participants, who may not have an accurate perspective of how MAC conducts itself in the "brick & mortar" world.

-Steve
"sometimes impersonates a club official" ;)


As a new member (using the term loosely), all I've tried to do here is ask questions and give my opinions to what I think is fair when charging for a 'so called' membership. I was VERY clear I was not officially speaking for the club.

To me, 'membership' seemed implied by writing a $30 check. It's obvious you view membership as an 'earned' status (or a core member as you describe), and the $30 as a charitable donation. That's OK. You're entitled to your opinion too.

At this point I can't really tell if you officially speak for MAC regarding the definition of 'membership'... or just a seasoned member with an opinion, same as me. Either way, your loyalty to MAC and its members seems unquestioned, but the resounding message I heard from you is...

"No REAL need to pay $30 dues each year. We love you all the same, so no need to officially join the club financially. Just come out, help out with the event, and have fun."

That's cool, but would others in leadership agree with that? I'm just trying to get a lay of the land here so I can manage my expectations. That's all. No worries or offenses.

Cheers.

[JCN]

Charles lost me a bit, when he tried to re-define the term "member". I believe what he's trying to say is that there's a difference between members and active volunteers. Out of MAC's 150 or so active members, there's a core of 30-40 members who volunteer for event positions and/or show up at monthly meetings. These core members are the ones who largely keep our club running.
-Steve
"sometimes impersonates a club official" ;)

I'm in complete agreement with Steve who speaks more officially than me.

The only point of clarification that I would make to Kenny is:

You seemed to indicate that there are two separate types (or classes) of members, 'financial members/supporters' and 'core members', which IMHO seems somewhat condescending and belittling, as though new financial members aren't valued by MAC. You got to earn your stripes before your valued.

The two classes in my mind are not: financial members vs. core members.

I was talking about financial members vs. contributing members (of which core members are a subset). The example I gave was Novice school. Anyone who came out and ran for cones in the rain earned their stripes in my book. They're contributing members because they made the club event better. We'd love them to become core members. There's no barrier or entry fee to that group. Just show up at a MAC meeting and hang out! Nothing condescending about that.

And financial members vs. contributing members is not mutually exclusive, of course.

My point was: If I'm a typical contributing MAC member, I don't care at all if you're a financial member or not. Like Chris said, the club makes more money off non-members. I want more good people to come out and play. It's fun for me and that's why I spend my weekends with MAC people. The more MAC becomes like "work," the less likely I am to volunteer my time.

There is no MAC separate from the component members, IMHO.

[MacLotus]

A little too much over-analysis going on, in my opinion. No, Charles doesn't speak for the club in an official capacity - although we're not too concerned with an "official company line". After all, this is a 100% volunteer organization, so the culture of MAC is largely determined by those members who volunteer their time & energy to keep the club going.

Anyone who pays their $30 is considered a member of the club. For that $30, members receive two direct benefits:
1. Reduced entry costs for a majority of events.
2. Access to members-only Test & Tune events.

In return, the club receives somewhat improved cash flow, as we collect most membership dues early in the season.

Charles lost me a bit, when he tried to re-define the term "member". I believe what he's trying to say is that there's a difference between members and active volunteers. Out of MAC's 150 or so active members, there's a core of 30-40 members who volunteer for event positions and/or show up at monthly meetings. These core members are the ones who largely keep our club running.

The Internet has added an interesting dynamic to the equation. Because of this forum, MAC has developed a far more active & far-reaching social community than many/most similar clubs. For the most part, the most active posters on mnautox.com are the same core volunteers mentioned above. However, there are also a number of individuals who are active on mnautox.com, but don't regularly (or ever) participate in MAC driving events. Normally, that isn't an issue, as mnautox.com is a social community with it's own life. However, as Charles intimated, newcomers can occasionally get a skewed perspective from online-only participants, who may not have an accurate perspective of how MAC conducts itself in the "brick & mortar" world.

-Steve
"sometimes impersonates a club official" ;)

Thank you for the clarification. I'd like to be one of those 'active volunteers' that bring value to the core collective effort, and I look forward to meeting many of you this weekend.

Ken

[AQuimby]

Well this thread was only 10 posts or less for the first three days that it was up. All it takes is somebody stir with a little offending comments and blam 90+ posts.


I was not very happy at all when it went to preregistration pay ahead only and no refunds. My beef was that the events filled fast and I could not make the commitment that far in advance.

I will have to admit though that it has worked just fine this way and that the overall efficiency and quality of events has been better because of it. There really is no excuse. If a person really wants to make an event there is very little holding them back but themselves. The claim of "elitism" or saying that the club caters to a certain group of people holds no water in my opinion.

[JCN]

Thank you for the clarification. I'd like to be one of those 'active volunteers' that bring value to the core collective effort, and I look forward to meeting many of you this weekend.

Ken

Sweet! :rockon
You are, of course, more than welcome to come meet some people Wednesday at the membership meeting!

Just as a point of perspective, at every MAC membership meeting we go around and introduce ourselves and what we drive. Even when everyone knows each other very well, we still go through the routine to make sure everyone is included.

[MacLotus]

Sweet! :rockon
You are, of course, more than welcome to come meet some people Wednesday at the membership meeting!

Just as a point of perspective, at every MAC membership meeting we go around and introduce ourselves and what we drive. Even when everyone knows each other very well, we still go through the routine to make sure everyone is included.

I think we're all saying the same thing here. "You get out of the club what you put into it." Words of wisdom... right?

Thanks Charles. Where does the meetings take place and what time?

Ken

[JCN]

http://www.mnautox.com/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=133&day=2009-4-29&c=1


The monthly meeting of the Minnesota Autosports Club is held the last Wednesday of each month at the Davannni's Pizza (address below). The official meeting begins at 7:30 PM, with many members arriving by 7:00 PM to get food and socialize before the meeting. Everyone is welcome!


Davanni's Pizza
8605 Lyndale Ave S
Bloomington, Mn 55420
952-888-6232

[phile]

I was not very happy at all when it went to preregistration pay ahead only and no refunds. My beef was that the events filled fast and I could not make the commitment that far in advance.

Event preregistration without payment worked great before we started outgrowing our sites. In early times, we encouraged people to register even if they were not sure they were coming. It streamlined our computer-entry and all was good. That had to come to a screeching halt when we had to impose limits on the number of entrants because no-shows became a big problem. We tried an unline waiting list, but that got out-of-hand, too. The only thing that has seemed to work is requiring payment to keep the entry list down to people who actually expected to be there. No-refunds did that.

A couple of regulars wanted to pay for the season to ensure a spot. To keep THAT from getting out-of-hand, we needed to make it pretty-restrictive.

Currently, the seasonal registration is not causing all that much havoc in that regard. The number of seasonal registrants now seems to be 24. I didn't do it this year because I will miss the last 3 Mowogs.

The system we have is, like any other system you can envision, not perfect. But it's working pretty well.

[AQuimby]

A couple of regulars wanted to pay for the season to ensure a spot. To keep THAT from getting out-of-hand, we needed to make it pretty-restrictive.

Currently, the seasonal registration is not causing all that much havoc in that regard. The number of seasonal registrants now seems to be 24. I didn't do it this year because I will miss the last 3 Mowogs.

The system we have is, like any other system you can envision, not perfect. But it's working pretty well.

Yep. I agree as I stated in the last part of my post. I didn't like it at first but think that any beef I thought was valid at first holds no water now. System works great. This club handles it better than any other I have come across.

I am glad to be part of one of the greatest clubs in the US.:)