2009 Event Schedule Planning

[MNbiker]

Per the October meeting, Lee Frisvold, Larry Sanders and I will serve as the committee responsible for setting the 2009 schedule. We'll bring questions to the forum and/or monthly meeting, as necessary.

For now, here's a preliminary outline for the '09 schedule, as discussed at the meeting:

MOWOG Series - 9 events
2 at Valleyfair
2 at DCTC
2 at Midway
3 at Canterbury (shift 3rd event to DCTC if we can't get another date)

Test 'n Tune - 3 events
2 at DCTC
1 at Midway (early-season event, with lower entry limit)

Novice School - 1 event at Midway

Teen Driving School - 1 event at Midway or DCTC

Intermediate School - 1 event at DCTC

Evo School - 2 events over 1 weekend at CVTC
(pending agreement with CVSCC)

Comments?

[AlexL]

Novice School - 1 event at Midway
What is the purpose of dropping the second novice school?

[JCN]

This was under a significant amount of discussion at the meeting. As best I understand, dropping the second novice school was more a logistic and resource utilization limitation to fill the purpose of strengthening the core, return membership with an "intermediate" school.

I'd just offer that LaCrosse has a ton of underpopulated TnTs that could be used for Novice introductions (they allow ridealongs).

I'd make the suggestion that we really limit Intermediate school to SI regulars and non-trophy winners. Advanced intermediates could do Evo or the Pat/Neal individual instruction.

914 Dave, I'd be happy to play the "noob" if we do a MAC novice video... I still remember all the "don't do this" novice mistakes.... :D

[marks_lude]

Once dates are chose, will this be the thread that is updated? I will bookmark it now if so.

Those first ones fill so fast you gotta be on the ball ya know?!

[aansorge]

I wouldn't change a thing!

[miata#37]

Who will be the lead person on the teen driving school?

[gsk8r]

Looks great! Keeping my fingers crossed for three Canterbury events!

PS - to whom it may concern, I would love to help with the teen driving school too!

[JCN]

Who will be the lead person on the teen driving school?

Sitz and 914 Dave.

[MAYcar]

Not to sound greedy or anything, but how about trying to get Canterbury for 4 events? Have 2 Sat/Sun combo weekends? Otherwise it looks great!

[MNbiker]

Not to sound greedy or anything, but how about trying to get Canterbury for 4 events? Have 2 Sat/Sun combo weekends? Otherwise it looks great!
I'm not saying we shouldn't do that - but if we do, which other site gets one less event?

Also, everyone should be aware that our window for Canterbury may be limited to early September through the end of the season.

[MNbiker]

Once dates are chose, will this be the thread that is updated? I will bookmark it now if so.
No, I'll shut this thread down, once we have all the input needed. A new thread will be posted some time in January, with the official schedule.

[MNbiker]

What is the purpose of dropping the second novice school? We've had a tough time getting enough instructors for the second school the past couple years. We may still end up with a second school, but please note three new events are being proposed for '09 (Intermediate School, Early-Season TnT, Teen School) - so volunteer resources are a very real concern.

[MNbiker]

I'd make the suggestion that we really limit Intermediate school to SI regulars and non-trophy winners......
Not sure I'd want to impose a complete restriction, as it would just create administrative hassles. However, we could certainly provide guidelines for the intended target audience.

[Darryl]

If we can get 3 events at CP, we should make it 4, 2 weekend... The cost of a one day event at CP would very high + the setup time... Drop one DCTC event, we still have several at DCTC + COM and PCA will have one or more each...

Dropping the second Novice school and replacing it with an intermediate school makes total sense... We have so many drivers looking for advanced instruction...

Now we just need the SCCA schedule from Topeka so we don't run against Nat's or the Milwaukee NT....

Looks like a great schedule and a FULL one...

[marks_lude]

So what level in the intermediate school currently intended for? I did ok this season, and realize that the novice school isnt intended for those of us that have been doing it for a while... but is the intermediate one? or is it still for novices that have slightly more experience?

I ask for 2 reasons: First, my times are pretty good, but I'm pretty sure I have many bad habits because I've never actually had real instruction. Second, I would absolutely love to do Evo I, but after the spring R-compound purchase, I assume it will not be in the budget.

[MNbiker]

So what level in the intermediate school currently intended for?
I anticipate the primary target audience will be drivers with 1-2 seasons of autocross experience.

[MNbiker]

If we can get 3 events at CP, we should make it 4, 2 weekend... The cost of a one day event at CP would very high + the setup time... Drop one DCTC event, we still have several at DCTC + COM and PCA will have one or more each...

Personally, I'd rather drop one of the MOWOG events at Midway, vs. DCTC. We're already proposing one less Series event at DCTC than in '08.

My main concern with doing a pair of two-day events at Canterbury is that we could very well end up with the only viable scheduling options being to hold a two-day event in September and another in early October. Depending on when Solo Nationals is scheduled, September could get kind of busy. However, I agree that two-day events are a more efficient way to go for the larger sites.

[JCN]

So what level in the intermediate school currently intended for? I did ok this season, and realize that the novice school isnt intended for those of us that have been doing it for a while... but is the intermediate one? or is it still for novices that have slightly more experience?

I ask for 2 reasons: First, my times are pretty good, but I'm pretty sure I have many bad habits because I've never actually had real instruction. Second, I would absolutely love to do Evo I, but after the spring R-compound purchase, I assume it will not be in the budget.

I don't think any actual guidelines have been drawn up.
But if you think about what would benefit MAC most and you take personal finances out of the equation...

I'm not sure that allowing people who PAX'd in the top 10 and won their series championship would quite qualify for "Intermediate" school. :evil:

Evo school sounds like it is optimally suited for you (if you take the finances out of it).

Alternately, some Neal / Washburn time.

Novice school has some guidelines: less than one season experience, etc.

Maybe we should break the Intermediate school discussion off into a separate thread.

[MNbiker]

...Maybe we should break the Intermediate school discussion off into a separate thread.
Not really necessary. This is exactly the kind of feedback we need, in order to build the schedule.

And I wouldn't get too hung up on where someone finished, as a criterion for the Intermediate School. I would consider Evo 1 to be an intermediate-level school, and it caters to everyone from drivers with a year or less of experience to grizzled veterans. Concepts such as look ahead and smooth inputs apply to everyone. I would think the best approach will be to have a clear outline of what will be taught at the school and simply let potential students decide for themselves whether the subject matter is of value.

[marks_lude]

I don't think any actual guidelines have been drawn up.
But if you think about what would benefit MAC most and you take personal finances out of the equation...

I'm not sure that allowing people who PAX'd in the top 10 and won their series championship would quite qualify for "Intermediate" school. :evil:

Evo school sounds like it is optimally suited for you (if you take the finances out of it).

Alternately, some Neal / Washburn time.

Novice school has some guidelines: less than one season experience, etc.

Maybe we should break the Intermediate school discussion off into a separate thread.
Just want to make it clear that I'm not exactly pushing to make it for people like me, just simply wanted to clarify whether it was for me or not because if it was, I would be one of the first to sign up.

The test n tune hr instruction is good too, but obviously not near the value simply base on time (1hr vs 1day... nothing about the quality of instruction). Once you consider price of that hr+the entry of the test n tune... there is a pretty big difference in my eyes. It seems as you get better you have to pay more for less time of instruction simply because you no longer qualify for the local schools. Being someone that started autocrossing in college where I was never financially well-off enough to afford a school as a pure novice, I'd be lying if I said I'm not a bit bummed that I missed my opportunity for the great value that is our local schools... especially considering that every time I have a ride along I usually have a new 'novice mistake' pointed out to me.

That's my pitch from my point of view... I fully understand that opening the school to those of us who have a few years experience my introduce some issues that many would like to avoid (like excessively high demand), so if it remains as not intended for me... I 100% respect that. I just wanted to give my view point.

[ada///M]

I would vote to drop an event at midway. Heck, drop both events there...

[JCN]

Our MAC schools are obviously the best values because they're subsidized with volunteer instructor time.

I'd say that as you get better, things get more expensive because the advice gets more specialized. Most of us could tutor basic algebra. Less of us could tutor multi-varible calculus.

Let's say you qualified for Intermediate school. There might only be a handful of people with "better" technique and most of them without S2000 experience. You might even inadvertently pick up deleterious advice...

I guess I envisioned it as somewhere between Novice and Evo... like an advanced Novice school for people without desire to attend Evo.

Maybe a staggered registration window to give "dibs" to more novice intermediates?

[MattD]

Canterbury is much better than DCTC. If we do 4 events at CP, then drop a DCTC event.

Keep ALL Midway events.

[marks_lude]

I'd say that as you get better, things get more expensive because the advice gets more specialized. Most of us could tutor basic algebra. Less of us could tutor multi-varible calculus.

Well thats just it. What I tried to imply a bit by stating that every time I get a ride along I get a new novice mistake pointed out... I've realized by never getting basic level instruction, I've developed some bad habits, and can only assume I worked around them to turn good times. A lot of them pointed out to me, I never even realized I did until someone told me.

I'm not looking for a more advanced school more geared towards me, I'm looking for an opportunity to qualify for the basics to have a day of cleaning up bad habits I was never taught to avoid. Goes back to me being bummed that that my novice days were submerged in my 'broke college days'... so I gained experience without ever getting solid guidance.

Again its not really a huge deal, and I maybe the only one in this sort of situation... so I'll just save my pennies for Evo and hopefully be able to financially justify it.

[MNbiker]

...Let's say you qualified for Intermediate school. There might only be a handful of people with "better" technique and most of them without S2000 experience. You might even inadvertently pick up deleterious advice...

I agree that it's always possible to pick up counter-productive advise from an instructor. However, teaching and driving really are two different skill sets. I've ridden with and been the student of some amazingly fast drivers who either didn't connect well with me or simply couldn't explain how they manage to drive so quickly. On the other hand, I've experienced outstanding teachers who weren't necessarily the fastest drivers. Of course, the ideal would be someone like Tim Aro, who is both an outstanding driver and an amazing teacher - but there aren't too many of those around.

I also think we need to separate technical instruction focused on specific car control techniques, car setup, etc. from training focused on broader skills, such as looking ahead, smooth inputs, reading courses, etc.

Using Mark as an example, it's quite possible he could benefit from instruction in the types of general skills I would envision being covered in an "intermediate" school - as could most drivers. Several Evo instructors have commented to me that they periodically re-take Evo 1 & 2 - just to make sure they haven't picked up any bad habits. I would expect our Intermediate School to offer content at a similar level to Evo 1 - with maybe even a bit of Evo 2 mixed in. With Evo 1 & 2 classes, you're really not paying extra for some super-special, super-secret curriculum - the concepts are pretty straightforward. You ARE paying extra for instructors that are both accomplished drivers and experienced teachers. The challenge for MAC is to identify those members who are good enough teachers to benefit drivers with a bit more experience - which may well include drivers faster than themselves.

As for the more technical training, that's where the coaching sessions run by Pat & Neal come in. We're also hoping to offer an Evo Challenge School in '09, which would offer another option for this type of training.

[914 Dave]

Our MAC schools are obviously the best values because they're subsidized with volunteer instructor time.

Maybe a staggered registration window to give "dibs" to more novice intermediates?

The best instruction money can't buy- but might be able to sometime soon...

Sign up? I expect way more interest than space, judging from how fast the Pat/Neal slots were filled. I'm thinking lottery. Sign up by a certain date on line, draw names from a hat with maybe 5 alternates. If one of the chosen few can't make the date, or come up with the cash, the spot goes to the 1st alternate, and so on.

[murph]

With the stated support for Midway, I suppose I should emphasize my dislike for Midway, and my fondness of DCTC.

[JCN]

Of course, the ideal would be someone like Tim Aro, who is both an outstanding driver and an amazing teacher - but there aren't too many of those around.

I also think we need to separate technical instruction focused on specific car control techniques, car setup, etc. from training focused on broader skills, such as looking ahead, smooth inputs, reading courses, etc.

Agreed.


Using Mark as an example, it's quite possible he could benefit from instruction in the types of general skills I would envision being covered in an "intermediate" school - as could most drivers. Several Evo instructors have commented to me that they periodically re-take Evo 1 & 2 - just to make sure they haven't picked up any bad habits. I would expect our Intermediate School to offer content at a similar level to Evo 1 - with maybe even a bit of Evo 2 mixed in. With Evo 1 & 2 classes, you're really not paying extra for some super-special, super-secret curriculum - the concepts are pretty straightforward. You ARE paying extra for instructors that are both accomplished drivers and experienced teachers. The challenge for MAC is to identify those members who are good enough teachers to benefit drivers with a bit more experience - which may well include drivers faster than themselves.

Well, then sign us up for Intermediate school! :rockon

If that really is the intent of the school (Evo-1 substitute), then pretty much everyone qualifies for this "Intermediate" school. We were planning on re-taking Evo school anyway, but we may do this instead and get inexpensive seat time!

I guess I was envisioning something a little different. Maybe there isn't enough interest or enough people to populate an Intermediate school with what I was thinking.

I was thinking about something like this:


John Smith has been autocrossing casually for a few years. He makes it out to a couple MOWOGs per year. Usually finishes 4-6th place in his class of 4-6. He's a little shy and doesn't "hang out" with the flashy MAC members who have stickers all over their cars and travel hundreds of miles to compete in far away locations like Mil-e-wauk-Ee.... He doesn't feel comfortable going up to some of the fast drivers and ask for help. He's Minnesota-shy and can't bring himself to impose on others to get into his car for on-the-fly instruction. He is afraid of being judged as "slow" by people who might instruct him on-the-fly.

He's a little frustrated with his autocrossing. He doesn't do in-car video or datalog. He doesn't watch YouTube videos of autocrossing. He doesn't know what the heck it really means to "backside" a cone. He's never been the passenger in his own car on an autocross course.

John is thinking about quitting MAC and autocross in general. He's hit a plateau and would like to improve, but only if it's a minimal investment of time and money. Deep down, he knows he would be hooked if he was more competitive... but doesn't know how to get there from here.

He's been autocrossing on and off for a few years and doesn't qualify for Novice school. He's very excited for the prospect of an Intermediate school and all the MAC instructors could help him significantly enjoy the sport by driving better with just a few minutes of directed instruction.

I can think of quite a few middle-of-the-PAX'rs who were at a stable plateau all year and might be frustrated about their driving. I don't know, however, whether they would be interested in Intermediate school.

[speedyham]

If at all possible I'd like one of the Cantubury events to be earlier than September, otherwise I won't be able to make any of them (again) :(

[Mekhem]

I'd make the suggestion that we really limit Intermediate school to SI regulars and non-trophy winners. Advanced intermediates could do Evo or the Pat/Neal individual instruction.

Ooh Ooh Ooh This!

[Mekhem]

Also, Now that I have read through the entire thread. I kind of like midway - Its quick, you get a lot of runs so its easy to stay in a rhythm. Plus its close to my house...

[nm+]

With the stated support for Midway, I suppose I should emphasize my dislike for Midway, and my fondness of DCTC.
Compared to valleyfair or Canturbury, I don't care for either of them.
Midway's too small, DCTC has dirt and fences. However, i'll take a day at midway or DCTC over no autocross. :)

My only support is for lots of events before the end of may, partially because i'll most likely be moving and I'm selfish, and partially because thats when one is jonesing the most.

[MustGoFaster]

With the stated support for Midway, I suppose I should emphasize my dislike for Midway, and my fondness of DCTC.

I shall counter your support for DCTC with more support for Midway.

[Andrew]

With the stated support for Midway, I suppose I should emphasize my dislike for Midway, and my fondness of DCTC.

I also support DCTC over midway.

[MNbiker]

What you describe is essentially a Novice School for drivers with a bit more experience. There's no reason we couldn't offer such a course if there were enough demand. However, almost all the requests I've received are for something beyond what is offered in the Novice Schools - which pretty much translates into content that parallels Evo Phase 1.

BTW - I just had an idea that might help us better address expected demand. We could make the Intermediate School a half-day event, and run two groups of students through in a day. This would also allow us to keep the cost reasonable, while still covering site costs for DCTC. How does that format sound?


I was thinking about something like this:
I was thinking about something like this:

John Smith has been autocrossing casually for a few years. He makes it out to a couple MOWOGs per year. Usually finishes 4-6th place in his class of 4-6. He's a little shy and doesn't "hang out" with the flashy MAC members who have stickers all over their cars and travel hundreds of miles to compete in far away locations like Mil-e-wauk-Ee.... He doesn't feel comfortable going up to some of the fast drivers and ask for help. He's Minnesota-shy and can't bring himself to impose on others to get into his car for on-the-fly instruction. He is afraid of being judged as "slow" by people who might instruct him on-the-fly.
He's a little frustrated with his autocrossing. He doesn't do in-car video or datalog. He doesn't watch YouTube videos of autocrossing. He doesn't know what the heck it really means to "backside" a cone. He's never been the passenger in his own car on an autocross course.
John is thinking about quitting MAC and autocross in general. He's hit a plateau and would like to improve, but only if it's a minimal investment of time and money. Deep down, he knows he would be hooked if he was more competitive... but doesn't know how to get there from here.
He's been autocrossing on and off for a few years and doesn't qualify for Novice school. He's very excited for the prospect of an Intermediate school and all the MAC instructors could help him significantly enjoy the sport by driving better with just a few minutes of directed instruction.

[JCN]

BTW - I just had an idea that might help us better address expected demand. We could make the Intermediate School a half-day event, and run two groups of students through in a day. This would also allow us to keep the cost reasonable, while still covering site costs for DCTC. How does that format sound?

It has the added benefit of letting some MAC instructors benefit from instruction themselves. :rockon

[phile]

Midway instead of Dakota.

Any time, any date, any weather, no contest.

[SmokingTires]

I'm not saying we shouldn't do that - but if we do, which other site gets one less event?


DCTC... Easy choice...

[Dan I.]

DCTC by far...Midway has way fewer course options than DCTC, very poor grip, less paddock/grid/elbow room, ect...

If midway was either big or had a decent surface it would get my vote.

[Gspot]

I don't really enjoy Midway as much as DCTC, but I do like the deviation those events provide to the season schedule. I didn't run at Canterbury, so maybe that same "feel" is at Canterbury just on a bigger scale.

I think it's a good practice to do the low-speed, more-technical stuff at least once per season because if you aren't making the most of your lines at midway- your times really show it.

I tend to do better at Midway than DCTC because I don't feel the need to hold back a bit in certain places like I do at DCTC.

At the same time, I would like to have at least one event at DCTC to keep that "flavor" in the schedule.

[JCN]

Midway instead of Dakota.

Any time, any date, any weather, no contest.

I agree. My personal feelings on DCTC: very limited lines and not much practice in "looking ahead" because the major elements are predetermined by the lot. Once per year would be enough. The COM events will be there if you want more.

As a stand-alone event, Midway is a little weak due to the size, but in the context of driver improvement, there are things you can do with an open lot that you can't with a "course"-type lot. It's also good training to be uber-penalized for mistakes at Midway, IMHO.

[oldtoyota]

DCTC over Midway. Midways surface is horrible and the lot is to small. You never get enough speed to really get hot into a corner or use the brakes. DCTC offers a good change of pace from our other venues. The elevation changes and the good surface are a nice bonus too.

[nm+]

I agree. My personal feelings on DCTC: very limited lines and not much practice in "looking ahead" because the major elements are predetermined by the lot. Once per year would be enough. The COM events will be there if you want more.

As a stand-alone event, Midway is a little weak due to the size, but in the context of driver improvement, there are things you can do with an open lot that you can't with a "course"-type lot. It's also good training to be uber-penalized for mistakes at Midway, IMHO.
I simply don't like DCTC because I'm afraid of going off. i don't push that hard and my times reflect that. I spun at Canturbury both days because I knew there was little to lose except some course workers ;) , and I did pretty well. DCTC, I really, really don't want to go off sideways.

Midway: My car is bigger than midway, so the point is moot. And the curb is really close.

But again a day with autox at either is better than a day without.

[SmokingTires]

DCTC has been basically our only venue and the course is 99% the same and it's impossible to get lost because the road leads your eye. At least with Midway they have REAL bathrooms, and it's small enough that you don't have to walk a mile to use the bathroom while working.

[Corrado_92SLC]

I have to vote to keep DCTC. I've always really liked this course. I know it's not "true" autocrossing, but it offers a very different challenge that I really like.

I could give a bunch of reasons I dislike Midway, but Dan I. already did it for me. ;)

Also: I think an early season TnT is a great idea. Give those that tinkered and changed things over the winter a chance to test them out before the first event (or at least not over half way into the season, since I'm sure before the first would be too hard).

[G. Jay]

I guess I'd sooner lose a Midway than a DCTC. Canterbury is worth losing either of those but the low speed, short course and limited variety of Midway doesn't apeal to me as much as the high speed, long course and limited variety of DCTC. DCTC doesn't challenge you to find the line but it does challenge you to execute on a fast and flowing course. That sounds more useful for Nationals preparation to me. I PAX better at Midway but, eh, it's time to expand the sandbox. Midway does make for a fun season wrap theme event though. Very tidy, comfortable, fun, light and convenient.

[MAYcar]

Is there room in the schedule to add 1 event? With the initial proposal Steve lists 3 Canterbury events, I'm guessing that there would be a 2 day (Sat/Sun) event and a solo Sunday event. Is it feasable to add a Saturday event to the scheduled Sunday Canterbury event and keep the rest of the schedule the same? I don't see it adding that much work (for course setup) to gain an additional event, especially at a desirable venue. That would make it a 10 event season, perhaps something would need to be done with the end of season trophy qualification, make it 6 of 10 events to qualify instead of the current 5 of 9.

Also, a comment about the scheduling of events. This year the only event to be scheduled for the month of July was the Test and Tune. I am well aware that SCCA National Tour event in Milwaukee is also in July as well as Independence Day. Every other month from May on has 2-3 events scheduled (including Met Council). Is there a possibility that we could push another event into the month of July and finish the season a week or two earlier?

[Matt D.]

My opinions of our current available sites:

Valleyfair - Big place, good surface though started to break up in places as the weekend went on, wide open with no obstacles. The first two events of 2008 are what made me become really excited about autocross because up until then I had only experienced CVTC, DCTC and Midway. I'd love to run more events here, but we all know the chance of that.

Midway - It's small. The surface is good and I don't understand why people say it isn't, it's no worse than Valley Fair. 24 second runs or not, it's big enough for an autocross course. It allows for two events that are nearly a polar opposite of DCTC.

DCTC - Big and fast, but not very challenging. It's fun until you get out of shape, see someone go off or have to walk a half mile to and from your work assignment in 90+ degree temperatures. Great surfaces.

Canterbury - Big lot, decent surface that will only get better over time. Reminds me a lot of Valleyfair.

After reading previous opinions I would hate to add to DCTC and lose a Midway event. As limited as Midway course designs may be, so are those at DCTC. I feel that the risks at DCTC alone should justify us to not push our luck there and not add any events, if anything take an event from DCTC away and add to any of the other sites we have available. I would have no problem running at DCTC one less time if it meant the MOWOG series only had 8 events. Would love to had more Valleyfair and Canterbury events throughout the year, but there is only so much we can do about that.

Above all, we should be thankful to have the sites we do. Taking away from Midway doesn't make sense to me to add an event at DCTC as we already have 5 events at DCTC including the two test and tunes, plus the two PCA/COM events. I don't understand how people want more time at DCTC when there are seven events there already.

[JCN]

If we only had two DCTC events, I wouldn't want to lose either of them. But with two additional PCA/COM events available, I'd rather go 2 Midway : 3 DCTC than 1 Midway : 4 DCTC.

One of the elements that showed up at Nationals was a long, flat out straight followed by a hard braking zone and 90+ degree turn. The closest thing to that was at DCTC... but at a COM event because MAC courses at DCTC tend to avoid high risk / reward elements that increase the chance of going off course.

I feel that Midway at least gives practice in getting close the cones, especially with 8 runs available.

[Ivan]

IMO, riding the rev-limiter at Midway in 1st gear and/or 25 second courses are not fun as much fun... but it's a good place to practice beginner skills.
I do like the benefit of a venue like DCTC that offers the chance to hone skills on transitional-heavy, out-n-back style courses.
So if we're potentially gaining a date for higher speed, sweeper courses (Canterbury) then I'd say -1 Midway.

--Ivan

[aansorge]

To me Midway is a fun venue in some ways but doesn't seem to build skills that are needed at National Tours and Nationals. I would prefer to skip Midway to prevent screwing up my timing for the big events.

Dakota is a good venue for building skills in transitions and getting familiar with higher speed. I highly prefer Dakota.

[fitz]

If I may add my $0.02...

I know that some people don't really like DCTC and I understand why. Having designed about a bizillion courses out there over the last 10 years I am pretty familiar with the sites strengths and limitations. However, in DCTC's defense the fact that we have had such a wide variety of courses out there to my mind discredits the idea that our options there are "limited". I would also disagree that DCTC courses can not be challenging or do not encourage drivers to look ahead. Judging by the number of DNF's we sometimes see there I think looking ahead would be a very good practice. The roads can fool you Luke, don't trust them. DCTC, like any site has unique challenges that need to be taken into account in order to pull off a realy successful course design. It poses special challenges to the course designer but really challenging true autocross courses can absolutely be done there and have been done there.

I used to go to Midway events and I did the course design for MOWOG 1 there 2 or 3 years in a row. I used the same design every year. I don't think anyone noticed, or at least no one said anything. The surface is OK but the lot is really tiny. Even though its close to my house I don't really enjoy running there and I don't think it suits my car, so I stopped going. Here again I can see why people like the place, its always good to have a parking lot (I prefer parking lots generally) and any site is better than no site, but it just doesn't work for me.

I suspect if we took a poll more people if given the choice between DCTC and Midway most would chose DCTC. As a club we certainly have no problems filling up the grid at DCTC. The challenge with DCTC perhaps more so than with other sites it to keep coming up with really outstanding course designs. It can be done.

Personally I think we should keep as many events at each as we can. Variety is the spice of life and as we have learned in the past, you can't relly have too many sites.

[ChillyW]

Is there room in the schedule to add 1 event?


I'm all for that. It seems like, especially at the beginning of the year, there is a ton of demand for spots. The early events sell out in hours. I think if we had an extra event (or two), especially if it were earlier in the year, it might give more people a chance to get out to an event.

Of course, there will also be a bunch of us happy to get an extra event and will still go to all of them. :D

As for venues... Midway is my least favorite, and DCTC my favorite. But any day spent in a parking lot with a bunch of other car nuts is still better than anything else going. :rockon

[JCN]

I'm all for that. It seems like, especially at the beginning of the year, there is a ton of demand for spots. The early events sell out in hours. I think if we had an extra event (or two), especially if it were earlier in the year, it might give more people a chance to get out to an event.

I was really surprised at the meeting. I thought more events would be great. But pretty uniformly, board members didn't want to add more events. What I didn't realize was, while the attendance was great, it was a lot of work for the EM / timing / key position people and volunteers to fill those core positions were already stretched thin.

[94TOY]

Also: I think an early season TnT is a great idea. Give those that tinkered and changed things over the winter a chance to test them out before the first event (or at least not over half way into the season, since I'm sure before the first would be too hard).[/QUOTE]

I think that an early season TnT is also a good idea. new cars, setups, tires ect. its nice to get a feel for it early (MAY) and work from there.

[914 Dave]

I was really surprised at the meeting. I thought more events would be great. But pretty uniformly, board members didn't want to add more events. What I didn't realize was, while the attendance was great, it was a lot of work for the EM / timing / key position people and volunteers to fill those core positions were already stretched thin.

On the head. We as a board have had many discussions- have 2 mirror image boards and try to run 2x as many events, run fewer events, run more, less series events, more TnT's, more schools, less schools. Not to rain on anyones fun, but the season we had last yr was, I think, about the max we (as a board) can handle. We are taking steps to deal with the demand- encourageing more people to help out, timing PHD program, more instructors. And we're getting darn good at what we do from an organizational perspective. I can't imagine what, (and this is not a hack on cvscc) the Eau Claire guys would do if they were to try to put on a season like ours. There are plenty of clubs across the country I read about that have 1/2 the grid size and end up with 1/2 the runs we do, have no education program, and the guys who run there think its heaven.

Our little club is also growing to the point that there seems to be, in broadly defined groups, the nationals and the locals. This is another challenge to the board, to respect the national calanders, provide events to sharpen those guys up, and still put on events that are fun and challenging to the local group.

Maybe a schedule as simple as, opening season double header at VF, 2 midway and 2 dakota in the middle, a season ending double header at CP, and a final party event at midway. This schedule favors no one lot or group of drivers. If the national guys don't like the midway, if we have to, schedule a midway with a milwaukee, the nationals who go there will make more room for the locals at the mini golf lot. Throw in a couple TnT's, schools, and there you have it, a very full season.

Auto cross education. Everyone seems to think we need more of it, and maybe we do. I get the feeling some just want more seat time, ala a TnT, and if we had some ride along instructors that would just be frosting on the cake, while others want a more structured program, like an evo. Bottom line, we're never going to have just what everyone wants when they want it for the price they want it. In a perfect world, we'd have the time and talent (volunteers) to do: 2 novice schools, take DCTC and set 2 separate courses, have a full day intermediate class where 2 separate groups of 30 or so would spend 1/2 day on each course, do this maybe 2x a year, we would have the lot and time to set up an evo 1, 2, and set up the "EvoChallenge" school we talked about last yr, have a staff of instructors to give up their day to take timid newbies out and be their BFFaD (best friend for a day) at every event, and put on at least one Paul Teen driving school, maybe more. And we'd have enough event based instructors to stuff one in any car at any time for anyone who wanted help.

Whoa. That sounds like a whole season on its own. The idea of just trying to set up all those sites seems a little staggering, let alone coordinating this with a club driving event schedule, the national schedule, other local club schedules, and getting all the key people needed rounded up and availible.

I plan to have a specific list of things education related to disucss at the Nov club membership meeting. All these ideas are good ones, but being a volunteer group, we may need to pick and choose which ones to run with and when, to keep the MacMachine from over rev'ing and breaking down.

[ChillyW]

I was really surprised at the meeting. I thought more events would be great. But pretty uniformly, board members didn't want to add more events. What I didn't realize was, while the attendance was great, it was a lot of work for the EM / timing / key position people and volunteers to fill those core positions were already stretched thin.

That makes total sense. So if people (like me) want more events, more people (like me) are going to need to step up and take some of the load.
I think I need to figure out how to get more involved in the core stuff. Step 1: show up for meetings.

[magicsammy]

Great post, Dave.

I think it is important to note that our club is probably one of the best in the entire country for how many drivers we are able to get through our events.

Many clubs can't imagine running 160+ cars AND getting 6 runs.

Our training program is flat-out fantastic. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that there is a club around where National caliber and experienced drivers will hang around at the start line (for free) to help you drive better. Usually only novice instruction is offered and even that is to make sure you stay on course.

Everyone needs to know, and remember, that we are an all-volunteer organization. Nobody gets paid. Yes, the board members do get free entries to DCTC and Midway events but in dollars per hour, it probably works out to less than minimum wage.

When you are an EM for an event, you probably are looking at a 12-14 hour day, and many board members are there from start to finish to help, even if they are not the EM that day.

I encourage anyone who wants more events to step up and help out.

Shake hands, meet people, find out who's who. If we knew we had 25-30 solid, dependable volunteers, we might be able to run more events but right now we only have about 15 or so that we can really count on and who have proven themselves. Truth is, there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes to make this club run.

Make no mistake - the reason that we are as successful as we are, is directly a result of the contributions that ALL our members make.

[JRTritsch]

As the club grows and the entry numbers increase, would it be an effective use of budget to "hire" a couple key positions needed to run the show?

[asujosh1]

I totally get the conversation about how we need more volunteers to do our events, and I for one know I could have done more of that this year. For most of the season I really was a timid Minnesotan even though I have only been here for two years. I learned a ton this year and while I don't really like Midway a whole lot, I can see the value in a very tight track with lightning-quick lap times and lots of pushing the front end. DCTC is more in line with what I am used to and felt more at home to me, especially on the days when the track really flowed well.

EM would probably be a little more 'out there' than I could handle until I meet more people, but I can spend more time picking cones and setting up the track, or even helping to design the course. I plan to sign up and volunteer more to make this more of 'my' autocross community than I have already.

If I can find another car before the season starts, I plan on also going to at least Milwaukee to see what it is all about and see just how spanked I would get.

[JCN]

If I can find another car before the season starts, I plan on also going to at least Milwaukee to see what it is all about and see just how spanked I would get.

There's always co-driving!

I think you'd get a lot out of the Intermediate school. You'd get to meet a ton of people and it's a good way to have a bunch of instructors "keep an eye out" for you during the year.

Some of my favorite instructors from Novice school would come up to me periodically this season and either say, "Patience" or "Way too Hot!" to remind me to rein it in. :rockon

[asujosh1]

I was actually planning on trying to get into the EVO school that I have been hearing so much about. If there is also an intermediate school, it can't hurt!

I still have a ton to learn, and that is after learning a ton at the June Novice school. I also learned a lot by allowing the instructors to drive my car and see how different it feels when they are pushing it, how much they let the back end come around, how far they push the front, etc. One guy even told me that his daily driver was a TL Type S and he was interested to see how it did when he pushed it.

[fitz]

EM would probably be a little more 'out there' than I could handle until I meet more people, but I can spend more time picking cones and setting up the track, or even helping to design the course. I plan to sign up and volunteer more to make this more of 'my' autocross community than I have already.


EM isn't that hard. The key is to rule with an iron fist and keep things running to schedule. For everything else delegate to the assistant EM :)

[MattD]

We, as a club, are really doing some cool things.

Keyword: Club.

If we add any more events, we definitely need more serious volunteers.

[murph]

Maybe I'm off here, but it seems like the things that some of the board members do could be done by trained volunteers. We never seem to have a shortage of people who will volunteer to do one of the work assignments, even the ones that require some skill. Trophies, worker chief, safety steward, registration chief, maybe even a couple approved treasurers?

I volunteer for almost every event, and I'd like to help out more, but I can't usually make it to board meetings, so I can't really be a board member, but I could definitely do some of these day of event kind of duties if the board members are stretched too thin.

[JCN]

Maybe I'm off here, but it seems like the things that some of the board members do could be done by trained volunteers. We never seem to have a shortage of people who will volunteer to do one of the work assignments, even the ones that require some skill. Trophies, worker chief, safety steward, registration chief, maybe even a couple approved treasurers?

I volunteer for almost every event, and I'd like to help out more, but I can't usually make it to board meetings, so I can't really be a board member, but I could definitely do some of these day of event kind of duties if the board members are stretched too thin.

I agree with Murph and Pat. I'd like to do more, but not planning on displacing any existing board members anytime soon.

Any thought about forming "committees" to divide up responsibilities? I'd really like to do something with education / membership.

We could come up with some secondary compensation like 1/2 price registrations or free MAC membership.

[MNbiker]

We already do that. Although some Board Members have oversight of particular activities at events (tech, timing & scoring, etc.), that doesn't mean they're the only ones doing those jobs. We open the volunteer sign-ups to all members, and pretty much any job we have at events is covered by non-Board Members at least part of the time.

I think Dave may have been a bit off-base in relating our volunteer base limitations directly to Board participation. IMHO the primary factors limiting the number of events we can offer, in order of importance:

1. Site availability/scheduling. Some sites have very limited availability, and even DCTC and Midway tend to get busy mid-Summer.

2. Insufficient EM and timing & scoring volunteers. We have enough volunteers to cover most jobs. However, we haven't been getting enough EM volunteers to cover all events the past two years. We're also pretty thin on advanced-level timing volunteers.

3. Concerns with offering too many events. In '07, events weren't filling to capacity by mid-September. This year, all events filled to capacity. However, adding more events of the same type may not be a wise use of resources.



Maybe I'm off here, but it seems like the things that some of the board members do could be done by trained volunteers. We never seem to have a shortage of people who will volunteer to do one of the work assignments, even the ones that require some skill. Trophies, worker chief, safety steward, registration chief, maybe even a couple approved treasurers?

I volunteer for almost every event, and I'd like to help out more, but I can't usually make it to board meetings, so I can't really be a board member, but I could definitely do some of these day of event kind of duties if the board members are stretched too thin.

[fitz]

2. Insufficient EM and timing & scoring volunteers. We have enough volunteers to cover most jobs. However, we haven't been getting enough EM volunteers to cover all events the past two years. We're also pretty thin on advanced-level timing volunteers.

Insofar as the EM position goes maybe I am wrong but I suspect people might be afraid of that job. Trust me folks, it is not that hard. I've done it dozens of times and if someone like me can do it...

My priorities when I EM are (not necessarily in order) to;

1. Make sure all the jobs are being handled (they almost always are).
2. Make sure things stay on schedule.

It ain't rocket science. It simply requires a very modest level of organizational skill combined with the ability to schmooze/sweettalk and/or kick booty as necessary - basic people skills. Sometimes you have to deal with things like protests or technical snafu's but that stuff isn't brain surgery either. Most of the dirty work is delegated, the EM just makes sure it happens. Personally I prefer being EM to chasing orange colored rubber things all afternoon. It gives me something to do for most of the day.

Leading by example I'll take this opportunity just like last year andthrow my hat in early for 09' to volunteer for course design at a Test n' Tune (easy, already done) and also for sure 1 or preferably 2 MOWOG events at DCTC. I'll also EM at least two events (possibly more if necessary) with my preferences being VF and/or Canterbury. As long as my new drugs continue to work I think I can sustain that level of volunteerism no problemo.

[murph]

I don't have people skills, but I can bark in a walkie talkie with the best of them, so I guess I could EM an event or two this year.

[asujosh1]

I dont know about others, but I guess I have some trepidation about EM because I have no idea what goes into it.

[ChillyW]

My knees are yelling at me and telling me to stop shagging cones and start sitting in the timing trailer. If we're even remotely short there, sign me up.
I guess I always figured that T&S was a more desirable spot to be in so figured you wouldn't have any trouble filling it. Now that I know, I'll see if I can't get more involved there.

[G. Jay]

My knees are yelling at me and telling me to stop shagging cones and start sitting in the timing trailer. If we're even remotely short there, sign me up.
I guess I always figured that T&S was a more desirable spot to be in so figured you wouldn't have any trouble filling it. Now that I know, I'll see if I can't get more involved there.

+1

If timing is a pacing item I'll give it a try. Organizational and people skills? No so much. I don't generally like directing people.

[JCN]

Yeah, I'll do Timing school this year if there's a need for more trained volunteers.

[914 Dave]

We already do that. Although some Board Members have oversight of particular activities at events (tech, timing & scoring, etc.), that doesn't mean they're the only ones doing those jobs. We open the volunteer sign-ups to all members, and pretty much any job we have at events is covered by non-Board Members at least part of the time.

I think Dave may have been a bit off-base in relating our volunteer base limitations directly to Board participation. IMHO the primary factors limiting the number of events we can offer, in order of importance:

1. Site availability/scheduling. Some sites have very limited availability, and even DCTC and Midway tend to get busy mid-Summer.

2. Insufficient EM and timing & scoring volunteers. We have enough volunteers to cover most jobs. However, we haven't been getting enough EM volunteers to cover all events the past two years. We're also pretty thin on advanced-level timing volunteers.

3. Concerns with offering too many events. In '07, events weren't filling to capacity by mid-September. This year, all events filled to capacity. However, adding more events of the same type may not be a wise use of resources.


I was not implying that the board members are doing the lions share of the work at any given event. (even though you'd be hard pressed to fine one that would say "no" to any reasonable request) There are plenty of volunteers as noted in how fast the help out at the event threads fill up. For M9, I recall we had, all but 1 position filled by noon the same day the sign up was posted!

I didn't get into T/S or EM positions, as these are a little more specialized, and require a greater level of commitment to get it right, nor did I go deeper into sites, that post was plenty long enough on its own.

I was just wanting to point out, in a long winded way, that our season is plenty long with events, activities, and schools we have now, and adding more, be it a TnT, points event, or some sort of school, can be a problem in terms of fitting it all on the schedule, as well as setting up the lot and people to make it happen.

[washburn]

I dont know about others, but I guess I have some trepidation about EM because I have no idea what goes into it.

Offer to become an assistant EM at an event. You'll learn everything and see that it's not a bad gig. In fact, we should really have assistant EM's at all events.

As for timing and scoring, Josh runs the Timing PHD program in conjunction with the Novice School in the Spring. Something to think about.

[fitz]

I don't have people skills, but I can bark in a walkie talkie with the best of them, so I guess I could EM an event or two this year.

Done. Sign this man up to EM 6 events next year. :)

[914 Dave]

Nate and I will take the season ender at Midway again...

[gsk8r]

T&S IS the preferred spot, I can't believe more people don't do it... cozy little trailer out of the sun/rain, cool breeze blowing through your hair. It's great! I'm electronically illiterate and I can do it. Show this monkey which buttons to push and off we go!:dancin:

I'm going to restate what someone might have suggested in an earlier post... Would it be feasible to put the Midway events on the weekends of National Tour events or Milwaukee events? Don't Midway events have smaller registrations, setup and cleanup? Would there be enough key members still in town to handle a Midway event? It would free up some registration spots... it has been a common complaint that MOWOG events fill up too quickly this year.

[evilpope2001]

i vote for dctc. of course after hearing that the cvscc courses are more high risk/ reward setup i might just go to those at dctc.

[JCN]

i vote for dctc. of course after hearing that the cvscc courses are more high risk/ reward setup i might just go to those at dctc.

You should go the CVSCC ones. It's only high risk / reward in terms of your run times, not the safety of your vehicle.

[MNbiker]

...I'm going to restate what someone might have suggested in an earlier post... Would it be feasible to put the Midway events on the weekends of National Tour events or Milwaukee events? Don't Midway events have smaller registrations, setup and cleanup? Would there be enough key members still in town to handle a Midway event? It would free up some registration spots... it has been a common complaint that MOWOG events fill up too quickly this year.
Interesting idea. We'll have to see what site availability looks like, before we can start trying to slot the events. Hopefully, some of the National & regional SCCA schedules will get fleshed out soon, so we have good information for our local scheduling discussions.

[phile]

You should go the CVSCC ones. It's only high risk / reward in terms of your run times, not the safety of your vehicle.

Nice catch, JCN. I couldn't figure out where he was coming from on that! With the exception of the one-time-only-unlikely-to-be-repeated truck-driving course (they solved that by using parking lot at the site) the CVSCC courses have been very good for safety. Nothing that could be set up at Dakota could match them in that regard.

[914 Dave]

I'm going to restate what someone might have suggested in an earlier post... Would it be feasible to put the Midway events on the weekends of National Tour events or Milwaukee events?

Post 56.

[03eclipse]

I would like to know what I can do to sign up for the novice course, Where do I go to sign up for that?

[AlexL]

I would like to know what I can do to sign up for the novice course, Where do I go to sign up for that?
Registration will open up in the spring. Probably around a month before the course.

[MNbiker]

I would like to know what I can do to sign up for the novice course, Where do I go to sign up for that?
Online registration will open approximately 60 days in advance. Just check this website periodically, and there will be an announcement when registration opens.

Note: As Alex notes, registration for most MAC events opens 30 days in advance. However, we open earlier for schools.

[03eclipse]

thanks guys !!!!!

[Evil_Pineapple]

thanks guys !!!!!


Your gonna get smacked in the face with an EVIL PINEAPPLE!!!!!! HAHAHAHA